In this episode, I speak with Jonathan Zimmerman, Professor of the History of Education at the University of Pennsylvania, about how schools shape democratic life and the tensions that sit at the heart of public education. We begin with the origins of modern schooling and how ideas about intelligence, ability, and citizenship became woven into the structure of the American school system. Jonathan explains how IQ testing, industrial labor needs, and nation-building all influenced what schools began to value and what they ignored.

Our discussion moves into the cultural and political forces that shape the curriculum. We talk about why certain topics like sex, religion, and race get censored or avoided, and how fear plays a powerful role in determining what children are allowed to learn. Jonathan describes how both order and liberty are essential to a functioning democracy, and how schools must teach students to follow rules while also giving them the courage to question them. This tension sits at the center of nearly every modern debate about schooling.

We close by reflecting on what true democratic education requires. Jonathan argues that teaching is an intellectual and moral craft, one that requires humility, curiosity, and a willingness to embrace uncertainty. He offers insights on how schools can cultivate independent thinking while still grounding students in shared norms, and why understanding history in all its complexity is essential for helping young people learn how to live with others in a diverse society.

00:00 – Introduction and Jonathan’s path into education history
03:00 – What intelligence has meant throughout U.S. schooling
06:00 – IQ tests and the rise of educational sorting
09:00 – Mass schooling and the needs of the economy
13:00 – Who gets to become a scientist and why
17:00 – Schools as “pillars of the republic”
21:00 – Nationalism, patriotism, and public identity
25:00 – Censorship, fear, and taboo topics in education
30:00 – Balancing order and liberty inside the classroom
34:00 – Sex education, religion, and the discomfort of disagreement
38:00 – Teaching young people how to think, not what to think
43:00 – Democracy, diversity, and the struggle for shared norms
48:00 – Why teaching is an intellectual and moral practice
51:00 – Closing reflections and hopes for the future of public education