The Pilot Project Podcast is an aviation podcast that aims to help new pilots learn what it takes to succeed in the world of flight, to help people in the flight training system learn what they may want to fly, and to give Canadians and the world a peek into life on the flight deck in the RCAF. We want to help pilots succeed and thrive! We interview real RCAF pilots for their exciting stories as well as the lessons they've learned along the way. We'll learn their tips to develop resilience a ...
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Interviews With Canadian Pilots Podcasts
The Air Line Pilot Podcast provides news and information for pilots to stay up to date on what is happening in their union and across the industry. Through discussions about labor relations, tips for pilots, and aviation news, the podcast brings together pilot leaders, industry experts, policymakers, and more to keep ALPA members informed. The Air Line Pilot Podcast is hosted by Capt. Jason Ambrosi and is a product of the Air Line Pilots Association, Int’l.
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UFO Talker will be available every Wednesday. It will be a mixture of discussion, interviews and people describing their sightings of unidentified flying objects. You can contact the podcast by email: [email protected]
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A podcast hosted by Kate Stewart featuring interviews with extraordinary military women from around the world who push their limits on and off duty. ------- Merchandise: https://shoot-like-a-girl-podcast.square.site Instagram: @shootlikeagirlpodcast Contact: [email protected]
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Canadian Accident Investigations: Interview with TSB Chair Yoan Marier
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19:44In aviation, we learn from the past to build a safer future. One of the most effective ways we do that is through accident investigation—identifying contributing factors to reform processes, designs, and policies to prevent similar accidents from happening again. ALPA president Capt. Jason Ambrosi interviews Transportation Safety Board of Canada Ch…
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A Letter, Roger Wybot and a crashed UFO/ We jump down the rabbit hole/ Is A.I. good for ufology?
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1:04:25Send us a text Season 4 Episode 4. Host Michael Ryan and commentator Christine Scott take a look at a letter that was sent to the RCMP on March, 6, 1960. The sender makes a lot of claims and gives directions to where a crashed UFO is. Deep in the woods of British Columbia. At first take it may be easy to dismiss the letter, but is there something t…
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Episode 72: The LIFT: Lead-In Fighter Training in Italy and flying the CF-18 Hornet and the T-346 Master Part 2 - Brian "Humza" Kilroy
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1:00:08By Bryan Morrison
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The New Brunswick UFO Incident/ On a deserted road a man is chased by a UFO at speeds that reach 115 mph/ Book review of Ann Druffel's FIRESTORM
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1:05:13Send us a text Season 4 Episode 3. Host Michael Ryan and commentator Christine Scott take a deep dive into a case that was investigated by the RCMP in 1976. At 2:55 AM on October 3, 1976 Joseph Robichaud was driving on a dark, deserted road in New Brunswick, Canada. He soon found himself being chased by a red UFO that was as large as a house. Tryin…
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Episode 71: The LIFT: Lead-In Fighter Training in Italy and flying the CF-18 Hornet and the T-346 Master Part 1 - Brian "Humza" Kilroy
1:12:49
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1:12:49Ever wondered what it takes to become a Canadian fighter pilot? Today we chat with Major Brian “Humza” Kilroy, a CF-18 Hornet pilot and instructor on the T-346 Master at Italy’s International Flight Training School. Brian takes us through his journey from growing up in Alberta and joining the Royal Canadian Air Cadets, to earning his RCAF pilot win…
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The Three Mile Lake Incident/ Strange case of Ontario man who has encounter with a humanoid and then is visited by Canadian and U.S. military personnel
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1:17:18
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1:17:18Send us a text Season 4 Episode 2. Host Michael Ryan and commentator Christine Scott take a deep dive into the strange case of the Three Mile Lake Incident. On the evening of October 7, 1975 Robert Suffern was responding to a call from his sister that his barn might be on fire. On his way to the barn he sees a UFO hovering just above the road and a…
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Episode 70: The Rescue: Air Tindi crash survivors in the NWT – Conducting a CC-130H Hercules rescue, Part 2 – Jason Shaw & Vincent C-Benoit
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1:12:33
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1:12:33When a Twin Otter crashed north of Yellowknife in December 2023, a Royal Canadian Air Force CC-130 Hercules crew from 435 Transport and Rescue Squadron leapt into action. In this gripping episode of the Pilot Project Podcast, we talk with aircraft commander Jason Shaw and Search and Rescue Technician (SAR Tech) Vincent C. Benoit about the night SAR…
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Season 4 Trailer for UFO Talker/ New shows start September 24th
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1:25Send us a text Season 4 Episode 1. Trailer for UFO Talker Podcast. New shows begin next Wednesday on September 24th. We're back! Support the show To buy UFO Talker merchandise follow this link here. Female announcer: Joy Ryan Male announcer: Andrew Helbig The National UFO Records Center link here Christine Scott's Centennial Books 1230 Broad Street…
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Episode 69: The Rescue: Air Tindi crash survivors in the NWT – Conducting a CC-130H Hercules rescue, Part 1 – Jason Shaw & Vincent C-Benoit
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1:16:20In this first installment of The Rescue, Captain Jason Shaw and Sergeant Vincent C-Benoit of 435 Transport and Rescue Squadron take us inside the world of Canadian search and rescue operations. From their early days in the Canadian Army and Air Force - including deployments to Afghanistan and Bosnia - to the rigorous training pipeline for pilots an…
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A UFO shoots a beam of light at a horse as a woman looks on/ She calls for help and the UFO is witnessed by 12 people/ RCMP investigated this case from Northern British Columbia
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47:35
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47:35Send us a text Summer rerun series. From Season 3 Episode 22. In this episode that was originally aired on March 26, 2025 host Michael Ryan and commentator Christine Scott discuss this case from 1978. On the night of April 6, 1978 a woman was putting her horses away for the night when a beam of light shot from a UFO and went through the window of h…
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Episode 68: The Counter-Drug Ops: Flying SAR and counter-narcotics missions in the Caribbean and flying the De Havilland Dash 8 for PAL Part 3 - Pat Lalande, Trevor Juby
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52:12Counter-Drug and Search and Rescue Aviation in the Caribbean with PAL Aerospace What is it like to fly counter-drug interdiction and Search and Rescue missions in the Caribbean? What does it take to qualify for this demanding aviation work, and how do crews prepare to execute missions as part of Joint Interagency Task Force South (JIATF-South)? In …
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The Killian Incident/ American Airlines flight 937 encountered a UFO that forever changed the way commercial pilots reported UFO sightings
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55:25Send us a text Summer rerun series. In an episode that originally aired December 20, 2023 host Michael Ryan and commentator Christine Scott take a deep dive into the Killian Incident. The Killian Incident is named after American Airlines pilot Peter Killian who was Captain of flight 937 flying from Newark, New Jersey to Detroit, Michigan on the nig…
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Episode 67: The Counter-Drug Ops: Flying SAR and counter-narcotics missions in the Caribbean and flying the De Havilland Dash 8 for PAL Part 2 - Pat Lalande, Trevor Juby
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53:58RCAF to Counter-Drug and Search & Rescue Missions in the Caribbean What is it like to fly long-range patrol missions in the Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF), face close calls in high-stakes operations, and then transition to counter-drug and Search and Rescue (SAR) missions in the Caribbean? How do Canadian military pilots prepare for this demanding…
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INTERVIEW: Jacques Vallee talks about his book Forbidden Science 6/ His wife seeing a huge white light at their cabin in Northern California and his friendship with Dr. J. Allen Hynek and Dr. James McDonald ...
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1:33:30Send us a text Summer repeat series. Season 3 Episode 19. In this episode that originally aired on March 5, 2025 host Michael Ryan interviews Jacques Vallee. They discuss many topics including alien/human hybrids, UFOs and the Lawrence Livermore Labs. Vallee also talks about underwater UFOs and his friendship with Dr. J. Allen Hynek and Dr. James M…
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Episode 66: The Counter-Drug Ops: Flying SAR and counter-narcotics missions in the Caribbean and flying the De Havilland Dash 8 for PAL Part 1 - Pat Lalande, Trevor Juby
1:09:29
1:09:29
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1:09:29From RCAF Patrol Missions to Counter-Drug and SAR Operations in the Caribbean What kinds of missions do a long-range patrol sensor operator and crew commander face in the Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF)? What challenges and close calls have they experienced, and how did those skills carry over into high-stakes counter-narcotics and Search and Rescu…
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Whatever happened to Ufology? Michael Ryan and Christine Scott take a look at the dazed and confused world of UFOs.
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1:03:37Send us a text New Show! Season 3 Episode 33. In the last new show of Season 3, Host Michael Ryan and commentator Christine Scott discuss the current state of Ufology. Is the research and investigations as good as it once was? What effect are podcast having on the search for truth? If you would like to find out more about the Michigan UFO Contact c…
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Interview with Linda Rafuse National Director of MUFON Canada/ Linda talks about MUFON and seeing 2 UFOs hovering 75 feet above her in a schoolyard in Weston, Ontario
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1:18:16Send us a text Summer rerun series. In an episode that originally aired on January 29, 2025 (Season 3 Episode 14) host Michael Ryan interviews Linda Rafuse National Director of MUFON Canada. Linda talks about MUFON in Canada and covers several sightings and encounters including her sighting when she was in grade 6. During recess at an elementary sc…
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Episode 65: The Kingfisher: Developing, acquiring and flying the CC-295 Kingfisher Part 3 - Luc Coates, Francois Fasquelle, Dan Faux
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1:00:15In this episode, we continue our conversation with: Lieutenant-Colonel Luc Coates, Commanding Officer of 418 Search and Rescue Operational Training Squadron Lieutenant-Colonel Francois Fasquelle, Commanding Officer of 442 Transport and Rescue Squadron Major Dan Faux, subject matter expert on the CC-295 Kingfisher We dive deeper into the Kingfisher,…
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2 aircraft are paced by a UFO on 2 separate nights near Gander International Airport, Newfoundland/ Witnessed by 3 pilots and tracked on radar
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1:09:27
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1:09:27Send us a text Summer repeat series. Season 3 Episode 5. From a show that originally aired on November 7, 2024 host Michael Ryan and commentator Christine Scott take a deep dive into two separate UFO encounters by two aircraft near Gander International Airport on October 10, 1974 and October 11, 1974. The first UFO was seen by pilot John Breen who …
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Episode 64: The Kingfisher: Developing, acquiring and flying the CC-295 Kingfisher Part 2 - Luc Coates, Francois Fasquelle, Dan Faux
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57:47
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57:47In this episode, we continue our conversation with: Lieutenant-Colonel Luc Coates, Commanding Officer of 418 Search and Rescue Operational Training Squadron Lieutenant-Colonel Francois Fasquelle, Commanding Officer of 442 Transport and Rescue Squadron Major Dan Faux, subject matter expert on the CC-295 Kingfisher We begin with Dan’s early days as a…
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3 women see a massive UFO hover above them for over 10 minutes/Their screams seem to go unnoticed in an encounter that may have involved the Oz Factor and missing time
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56:00
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56:00Send us a text Summer repeat series. In an episode that originally aired on February 19, 2025 host Michael Ryan and commentator Christine Scott review another case from the RCMP files. This encounter took place on January 2, 1975 in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. Sometime around 11:15 pm Mrs. Verna Strachan, her daughter Wendy Strachan and Linda Marino …
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Episode 63: The Kingfisher: Developing, acquiring and flying the CC-295 Kingfisher Part 1 - Luc Coates, Francois Fasquelle, Dan Faux
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1:05:36
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1:05:36What drives someone to choose the demanding — and often dangerous — career of Search and Rescue pilot? What early experiences shaped their paths, and what does it really take to fly missions where lives hang in the balance? In this episode, we sit down with three remarkable guests: Lieutenant-Colonel Luc Coates, Commanding Officer of 418 Search and…
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Sky Canada - The Canadian governments report on UFOs is released/ What it got right and what it got wrong
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1:13:16
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1:13:16Send us a text Season 3 Episode 32. New Show! Host Michael Ryan and commentator Christine Scott take a deep dive into Sky Canada's UFO report "Management of Public Reporting of Unidentified Aerial Phenomena in Canada". We discuss what Chief Science Advisor of Canada, Mona Nemer, got right and what she got wrong. If you would like to read the report…
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For many ALPA members, flying is more than a career—it is a passion. And that passion is on full display at EAA’s AirVenture Oshkosh every year. At the 2024 EAA AirVenture Oshkosh, the Air Line Pilot Podcast caught up with ALPA members who arrived in classic warbirds or other vintage aircraft, or who flew as part of the daily airshow. William “Skip…
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Aviation expert Todd Curtis talks about UFOs, Drones and a UFO that caused electrical malfunctions on a commercial aircraft/Should there be rules of engagement for UFOs?
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1:43:49
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1:43:49Send us a text Summer rerun series. In this episode that originally aired on November 20, 2024 host Michael Ryan interviews aviation expert Todd Curtis. They talk about Curtis' appearance at Contact in the Desert last June and his five categories that help define what a UAP is. They also talk about the fact that drones are making it harder to tell …
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Episode 62: The CAPCOM: Earning the Elsie MacGill Award, flying the CH-146 Griffon, and working with NASA in Houston Part 3 - Erin Edwards
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55:16
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55:16What’s it like to go from flying helicopters in the Royal Canadian Air Force to becoming the voice in the headset for astronauts aboard the International Space Station? How do you transition from military aviation to serving as Deputy Branch Chief Operations Officer and CAPCOM at NASA? In this episode, we sit down with Captain Erin Edwards — a Spec…
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Irish ufologist Chris Gaffney talks about the 2004 Aer Lingus Boeing 737 that was damaged in flight by a triangle UFO/ Also Betty Meyler, Project Morrigan and more!
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1:38:39
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1:38:39Send us a text Summer rerun series. In this episode that originally aired on April 10, 2024 host Michael Ryan interviews Irish ufologist Chris Gaffney. Chris Gaffney takes us on a deep dive of all things relating to UFOs in Ireland. From the 2004 encounter that an Aer Lingus 737 had with a triangle UFO. The encounter caused damage to the wing of th…
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Episode 61: The CAPCOM: Earning the Elsie MacGill Award, flying the CH-146 Griffon, and working with NASA in Houston Part 2 - Erin Edwards
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51:59
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51:59What does it take to pass selection for one of Canada’s most elite aviation units — 427 Special Operations Aviation Squadron? How do you earn the coveted role of SOF Aircraft Commander? And what happens when you trade a military cockpit for a mission control console at NASA? In this episode, we sit down with Captain Erin Edwards, a trailblazing Can…
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Episode 46: Captain Amanda Ales (Royal Canadian Air Force)
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53:28
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53:28Amanda Ales is a Captain in the Royal Canadian Air Force and an Aerospace Engineering Officer specializing in space operations. Since joining in 2017, she’s focused her career on space, currently pursuing a Master’s in Physics and Space Science at the Royal Military College. With expertise in Space Domain Awareness, Amanda has trained globally and …
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Interview with UK UFO investigator Dave Hodrien who discusses the case of 3 black helicopters and a huge UFO seen near Staffordshire, England/ Also CLASSIFIED report of a black triangle UFO that hovered ...
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1:09:27
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1:09:27Send us a text Summer rerun series. Season 1 Episode 39. In this episode that originally aired on May 24, 2023 host Michael Ryan interviews UK UFO investigator and Chairman of the Birmingham UFO Group, Dave Hodrien. They discuss three military cases that Dave has investigated. The first is a 300 yard long UFO this is surrounded by 3 black helicopte…
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Episode 60: The CAPCOM: Earning the Elsie MacGill Award, flying the CH-146 Griffon, and working with NASA in Houston Part 1 - Erin Edwards
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53:34
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53:34How does a MARS Officer and Ship’s Team Diver become a Special Operations helicopter pilot? What does it take to get through the intense rigours of Phase III helicopter training — and then make the leap to 427 Special Operations Aviation Squadron? In this episode, we sit down with Captain Erin Edwards, a SOF Aircraft Commander, recipient of the pre…
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Part 2 of the Gary Heseltine interview on his book Non-Human/ A deep dive into the Rendlesham Forest Incident/ The OSI used drugs and intimidation during the interrogation of witnesses
1:55:03
1:55:03
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1:55:03Send us a text Summer repeat series. In this episode that originally aired on March 15, 2023 Michael Ryan interviews British detective Gary Heseltine about his book Non-Human. The book takes a deep dive into the Rendlesham Forest Incident. In part two Gary Heseltine talks about Sgt. Penniston and Airman Burroughs both had missing time during the in…
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Episode 59: The Seeker: Fixed Wing Search and Rescue and flying the CC-115 Buffalo and CC-130H Hercules Part 2 - Dan Conway
1:06:33
1:06:33
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1:06:33What did it take to fly Search and Rescue in the venerable (but aging) CC-115 Buffalo? What does it feel like to return to 3CFFTS as a seasoned pilot, ready to learn about the world of instructing? What's it like to be taught by your former students as you learn to fly the CC-130H Hercules? Today we sit down for part 2 of our interview with Major D…
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British Detective Gary Heseltine talks about his 5 year investigation into the Rendlesham Forest Incident/ Christine Scott's book review of Non-Human
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2:05:50
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2:05:50Send us a text Summer repeat series. In an episode that originally aired on March 8, 2023 host Michael Ryan interviews British detective Gary Heseltine about his book Non-Human. It's his 5 year investigation of the Rendlesham Forest Incident. This is part one of a deep dive into RFI. Gary Heseltine goes over the timeline like never before. It's alm…
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Episode 58: The Seeker: Fixed Wing Search and Rescue and flying the CC-115 Buffalo and CC-130H Hercules Part 1 - Dan Conway
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59:34
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59:34What is it like to attend RMC and go through flight training in the RCAF? Why was the CC-115 Buffalo in Comox a desirable posting even with the airplane entering its sunset years? Major Dan Conway is the current Deputy Commanding Officer (DCO) of 413 Transport and Rescue Squadron in Greenwood NS, and soon to be the DCO of 3CFFTS in Portage la Prair…
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Modernizing Air Traffic Control: Interview with NATCA President Nick Daniels
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31:20Air Traffic Controllers are critical to safe airline operations, but they have faced a chronic lack of support and infrastructure funding. ALPA president Capt. Jason Ambrosi sits down with Nick Daniels, the president of the National Air Traffic Controllers Association (NATCA). In their conversation about the challenges that controllers face on the …
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INTERVIEWS: Two eyewitness accounts of UFOs that altered their view of this world/ Two people, one from Melbourne, Australia and one from Regina, Canada.
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43:18
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43:18Send us a text Summer repeat series. In this episode that originally aired on October 4, 2023 (Season 2 Episode 5) two eyewitness accounts of UFOs that were closer than 30 feet away. Each sighting has changed the witness and the way they view the world. Julie is from Melbourne, Australia and she talks about her encounter that was witnessed by her a…
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Episode 57: The Culture: The Evolution of Culture in the Canadian Armed Forces and flying the CH-146 Griffon Part 3 - Jeannot Boucher
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1:04:30What does it take to take on the responsibility of being the Chief of Staff Chief Professional Conduct and Culture (COS CPCC) in the wake of the larger culture change effort that the Canadian Armed Forces has pursued over the last 10 or more years? Why is culture change necessary, and what does it even mean within the context of the military? Major…
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Did UFOs cause the sinking of the patrol boat PCF-19 during the Vietnam War?/ Also Christine Scott's book review of Against The Odds/ The Donald Keyhoe biography
1:21:56
1:21:56
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1:21:56Send us a text Summer repeat series. In a show that was originally broadcast in Season 2 (Season 2 Episode 14) host Michael Ryan and commentator Christine Scott look into the sinking of patrol boat PCF-19 during the Vietnam War. In June of 1968 the DMZ was plagued by low flying bright lights. Were they UFOs or were they North Vietnamese helicopters…
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Episode 56: The Culture: The Evolution of Culture in the Canadian Armed Forces and flying the CH-146 Griffon Part 2 - Jeannot Boucher
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50:04
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50:04What does it feel like to deploy as the Commander of Task Force Jerusalem in support of OP PROTEUS in the West Bank? What does it take to take over various commands in the Tactical Helicopter force? What goes into developing a defence policy update like "Our North Strong and Free" (ONSAF)? Today we sit down for part 2 of our chat with Major-General…
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A UFO lights up an 8 acre field like it's daytime while a family of 4 looks on/ Was Arthur Bray the most important ufologist in Canada?
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1:06:35
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1:06:35Send us a text Season 3 Episode 31. In the season 3 finale Host Michael Ryan and commentator Christine Scott analyze an RCMP report from November 18, 1978. In central British Columbia the O'Brian family stand motionless looking out their front window at a large UFO hovering over a field and lighting up 8 acres like it's daytime. Michael Ryan and Ch…
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Episode 55: The Culture: The Evolution of Culture in the Canadian Armed Forces and flying the CH-146 Griffon Part 1 - Jeannot Boucher
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57:35
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57:35What was it like to deploy to Afghanistan as the Deputy Commanding Officer of Canadian Helicopter Forces in Afghanistan (CHFA)? What was the Tactical Helicopter role in Afghanistan at the time and how violent was it in 2009? Today we sit down with Major-General Jeannot Boucher, Chief of Staff Chief Professional Conduct and Culture (COS CPCC). Jeann…
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The 5PM 1969/02/02 Encounter/ 5 people in a small Manitoba town encounter a UFO at close range and may have experienced the Oz Factor/ Investigated by the RCMP
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1:05:54
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1:05:54Send us a text Season 3 Episode 30. Host Michael Ryan and commentator Christine Scott discuss another UFO report taken from the files of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. In the small town of Ste. Rose du Lac, Manitoba 5 people have an encounter with a UFO. From their account of what happened that day it is possible to draw the conclusion that the…
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Episode 54: The Jet Jockey: Supersonic Stories: Flying the CF-188 Hornet in the Cold War Part 2 - Dan "Alf" McWilliams
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1:18:44What was it like to be one of the first cadres to fly the might CF-188 Hornet? What did it feel like to operate in Europe on the edge of the Iron Curtain during the Cold War? What was it like to deploy in support of the Gulf War? Dan "Alf" McWilliams is a retired RCAF Fighter pilot who operated during the Cold War. Today we sit down and talk about …
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INTERVIEW: Retired RCMP Sergeant Craig Cochrane talks about his investigation into the Island Lake Incident/ The case of a family of 5 being chased by a UFO while in their boat for 30 minutes
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45:17Send us a text Season 3 Episode 29. Host Michael Ryan interviews retired RCMP Sergeant Craig Cochrane about his investigation into The Island Lake Incident which occurred on the night of October 3rd, 1981. Albert Punch and his wife and three children were in their small boat when a large UFO (200 feet wide) chased their boat for over 30 minutes. Wh…
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Episode 53: The Jet Jockey: Tutor Tales: Flying and instructing on the CT-114 Tutor Part 1 - Dan "Alf" McWilliams
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1:12:26What was it like to live in Germany on a NATO base during the Cold War as a teenager? What does it feel like to follow in your dad's footsteps and achieve your dreams to become a jet pilot? What was it like to instruct at "The Big 2" Moose Jaw when there could be up to 30 CT-114 Tutors flying at once? Today we sit down with Cold War fighter pilot D…
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Did Harald Malmgren just kick the UFO secrecy door down?/ From Bluegill Triple Prime to his death bed confession that he saw a filmed interview with an alien/ Christine Scott's book review of The Flying ...
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1:00:41Send us a text Season 3 Episode 28. Host Michael Ryan and commentator Christine Scott discuss the recent interview of the late Harald Malmgren. Malmgren spent a lifetime working with four U.S. Presidents and advising the heads of state in Europe and Japan. In the Jesse Michaels interview he talks about many accounts of UFOs in a far ranging intervi…
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Episode 52: The Commander: Commanding the RCAF and flying the CF-188 Hornet Part 2 - Eric Kenny
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1:10:00What is it like to command the RCAF? What is the RCAF good at, and what needs fixing? Who are our potential main adversaries and why? What challenges will we face as we pursue modernization? Have US politics (as of recording mid-March) affected our strategies with the F35 and other acquisitions? What does the future hold for the RCAF? We will talk …
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INTERVIEW: David Oranchak who helped crack the Zodiac 340 Cipher talks about Zodiac and he decodes our Bernie Official UFO Cipher/ Is it possible to decode symbols written on UFOs?
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1:14:41Send us a text Season 3 Episode 27. Host Michael Ryan interviews cryptologist David Oranchak. David Oranchak along with Australian mathematician Sam Blake and Belgium computer programmer Jarl van Eycke cracked the Zodiac 340 Cipher which had been unsolved for 51 years. Oranchak talks about Zodiac and discusses how he decoded the Bernie Official UFO…
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Episode 51: The Commander: Commanding the RCAF and flying the CF-188 Hornet Part 1 - Eric Kenny
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1:01:10
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1:01:10What does it take to complete Canada's "Top Gun", the Fighter Weapons Instructor Course? What is it like to deploy to Bosnia or take part in the bombing campaign in Kosovo with real air-to-air and ground-to-air threats? What does it take to coordinate strikes in Afghanistan? How are we shifting from a counter-insurgency to peer-to-peer warfighting …
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