In this episode of As In Heaven, hosts Jim Davis and Michael Graham welcome Andrew Wilson and Glen Scrivener to discuss European perspectives on dechurching in America, drawing from insights in the UK, Australia, and Italy to compare and contrast the dechurching movement.

Episode time stamps:

• Episode and topic introduction (0:00)
• Losing cultural prestige and normativity in the states (7:02)
• The benefits of standing up to the cultural tide (12:25)
• The difference between secular traditional and secular progressive (15:39)
• Britain, Italy, and the catholic vs. protestant split (19:03)
• David Goodhart and nationalism (22:22)
• The difference between exile and sojourning (25:49)
• What’s the state of the church in 2024? (35:40)
• Final thoughts and encouragement (41:20)

This episode is part of As in Heaven’s third season, devoted to The Great Dechurching—the largest and fastest religious shift in U.S. history. To learn more about this phenomenon on which the episodes of this season are based, preorder The Great Dechurching by Michael Graham and Jim Davis.