Dylan Horrocks and Zach Dodson have created a university programme that their younger selves dreamed about. They are co-founders of The Visual Narrative Lab: a place for visualisers and world-builders of all sorts to explore storytelling across media ranging from comics to creative writing to tabletop roleplaying. Dylan, author of the acclaimed graphic novel Hicksville, and an Aotearoa Arts Laureate, has worked as a cartoonist, writer, and illustrator for over 35 years, and is renowned for his world-building, storytelling, and scholarship. Zach creates interactive narratives across various media, including the "illuminated novel" Bats of the Republic. He is also the founder of a publishing company, Featherproof Books, and a video game studio, Interactive Tragedy LTD. Sadie Coe talks to Dylan and Zach about their work, about play, and about the joys and pains of creativity, and gets jealous of students of the amazing Visual Narrative courses offered at Te Herenga Waka Victoria University of Wellington (https://www.wgtn.ac.nz/design-innovation/research/communication-design/visual-narrative-lab). B-Side Stories thanks Wellington Access Radio and NZ on Air for their support.