In this episode of CASAT Conversations, we are honored to welcome Saul, a seasoned Marriage and Family Therapist and Clinical Alcohol and Drug Counselor with more than five decades of experience working at the intersection of addiction, mental health, and family systems.
Throughout his career, Saul has worked with clients others deemed “resistant” or “impossible”—individuals often mandated into services or marginalized by systems that failed to see their humanity. What he learned, and now passionately teaches, is this: the most powerful lessons don’t come from textbooks or treatment manuals—they come from clients themselves.
Drawing from decades in private practice and systems work across juvenile justice, child welfare, and addiction treatment, Saul shares how he moved away from model-driven care and toward a client-need driven approach grounded in curiosity, collaboration, and respect. He reflects on what it means to be a “tourist in the client’s country,” how client scapegoating became his professional pet peeve, and why believing in the capacity for change—no matter the client—is non-negotiable.
With humility and deep conviction, Saul challenges the field to stop blaming clients and start reimagining engagement, starting with one powerful belief: there are no throwaway clients.
In this episode, Saul discusses:

• Why clients are often our most powerful teachers
• How he shifted from model-driven therapy to client-need driven care
• The dangers of labeling clients as “resistant” or “non-compliant”
• What it means to truly engage a client on their terms
• His approach to working with “difficult” clients and coercive systems
• The importance of clinical humility, curiosity, and collaboration
• Why he wrote his legacy book to share these lessons with the next generation

Join us for a candid and inspiring conversation about what happens when we let go of rigid models and start listening—really listening—to the people we serve.Key words: addiction treatment, mental health, systems, client-centered therapy

Resources:

https://www.amazon.com/Therapy-Clients-Challenging-Unique-Issues/dp/1032492422