Today's guest is Gavin Heverly, consultant and founder of Rise Above Consulting. Gavin has been working in and around climbing gyms since the late 90s, helping grow gym communities of all sizes, from mom-and-pops businesses to multi-market gym chains. Over his two decades of managing climbing gyms, he's become an expert in scaling, people operations, program development, risk management, and much more. Our conversation today centers on market saturation, differentiation, professionalism, and outdoor impacts as climbing grows.

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And thank you Devin Dabney for your music!