AI, self-paced courses, and shifting demand for instructor-led classes—what’s next for the future of training content? In this podcast, Sarah O’Keefe and Kevin Siegel unpack the challenges, opportunities, and what it takes to adapt.

There’s probably a training company out there that’d be happy to teach me how to use WordPress. I didn’t have the time, I didn’t have the resources, nothing. So I just did it on my own. That’s one example of how you can use AI to replace some training. And when I don’t know how to do something these days, I go right to YouTube and look for a video to teach me how to do it. But given that, there are some industries where you can’t get away with that. Healthcare is an example—you’re not going to learn how to do brain surgery that someone could rely on with AI or through a YouTube video.

— Kevin Siegel

Related links:

• Is live, instructor-led training dying? (Kevin’s LinkedIn post)
• AI in the content lifecycle (white paper)
• Overview of structured learning content
• IconLogic

LinkedIn:

• Kevin Siegel
• Sarah O’Keefe

Transcript:

Introduction with ambient background music

Christine Cuellar: From Scriptorium, this is Content Operations, a show that delivers industry-leading insights for global organizations.

Bill Swallow: In the end, you have a unified experience so that people aren’t relearning how to engage with your content in every context you produce it.

SO: Change is perceived as being risky; you have to convince me that making the change is less risky than not making the change.

Alan Pringle: And at some point, you are going to have tools, technology, and processes that no longer support your needs, so if you think about that ahead of time, you’re going to be much better off.

End of introduction

SO: Hi, everyone, I’m Sarah O’Keefe. I’m here today with Kevin Siegel. Hey, Kevin.

KS: Hey, Sarah. Great to be here. Thanks for having me.

SO: Yeah, it’s great to see you. Kevin and I, for those of you that don’t know, go way back and have some epic stories about a conference in India that we went to together where we had some adventures in shopping and haggling and bartering in the middle of downtown Bangalore, as I recall.

KS: I can only tell you that if you want to go shopping in Bangalore, take Sarah. She’s far better at negotiating than I am. I’m absolutely horrible at it.

SO: And my advice is to take Alyssa Fox, who was the one that was really doing all the bartering.

KS: Really good. Yes, yes.

SO: So anyway, we are here today to talk about challenges in instructor-led training, and this came out of a LinkedIn post that Kevin put up a little while ago, which will include in the show notes. So Kevin, tell us a little bit about yourself and IconLogic, your company and what you do over there.

KS: So IconLogic, we’ve always considered ourselves to be a three-headed dragon, three-headed beast, where we do computer training, software training, so vendor-specific. We do e-learning development, and I write books for a living as well. So if you go to Amazon, you’ll find me well-represented there. Actually, one of the original micro-publishers on this new platform called Amazon with my very first book posted there called, “All This PageMaker, the Essentials.” Yeah, did I date myself for that reference? Which led to a book on QuarkXPress, which led to Microsoft Office books. But my bread and butter books on Amazon even today are books on Adobe Captivate, Articulate Storyline, and TechSmith Camtasia. I still keep those books updated. So publishing, training, and development. And the post you’re talking about, which got a lot of feedback, I really loved it, was about training and specifically what I see as the demise of our training portion of our business. And it’s pretty terrifying. I thought it was just us, but I spoke with other organizations similar to mine in training, and we’re not talking about a small fall-off of training. 15, 20% could be manageable. You’re talking 90% training fall off, which led me to think originally, “Is it me?” Because I hadn’t talked to the other training companies. “Is it us? I mean, we’re dinosaurs at this point. Is it the consumer? Is it the industry?”

But then I talked to a bunch of companies that are similar to mine and they’re all showing the same thing, 90% down. And just as an example of how horrifying that is, some of our classes, we’d expect a decent-sized class, 10, a large class, 15 to 18. Those were the glory days. Now we’re twos and threes, if anyone signs up at all. And what I saw as the demise of training for both training companies and trainers, if you’re a training company and you’re hiring a trainer, one or two people in the room isn’t going to pay the bills. Got to keep the lights on with your overhead running 50%, 60%, you know this as a business person, but you’ve got to have five or six minimum to pay those bills and pay your trainer any kind of a rate.

SO: So we’re talking specifically about live instructor-led, in-person or online?

KS: Both, but we went more virtual long before the pandemic. So we’ve been teaching more virtual than on-site for 30 years. Well, not virtual 30 years, virtual wasn’t really viable until about 20 years ago. So we’ve been teaching virtual for 20 years. The pandemic made it all the more important. But you would think that training would improve with the pandemic, it actually got even worse and it never recovered. So the pandemic was the genesis of that spiral down. AI has hastened the demise. But this is instructor-led training in both forms, virtual and on-site. I think even worse for on-site.

SO: So let’s start with pandemic. You’re already doing virtual classes, along comes COVID and lockdowns and everything goes virtual. And you would think you’d be well-positioned for that, in that you’re good to go. What happened with training during the pandemic era when that first hit?

KS: When that pandemic first hit, people panicked and went home and just hugged their families. They weren’t getting trained on anything. So it wasn’t a question of, were we well-positioned to offer training? Nobody wanted training, period. And this was, I think if you pull all training companies, well, there are certain markets where you need training no matter what. Healthcare as an example, they need training. Security, needed training. But for the day-to-day operations of a business, people went home and they didn’t work for a long time. They were just like, “The world is ending.” And then, oh, the world didn’t end. So now they’ve got to go back to work, but they didn’t go back to work for a long time. Eventually people got back to work. Now, are you on-site back to work or are you at home? That’s a whole nother thing to think about.

But just from a training perspective, when panic sets in, when the economy goes bad, training is one of the first things, you get rid of it. Go teach yourself. And the teaching yourself part is what has led to the further demise of training, because you realize I can teach myself on YouTube. At least I think I can. And I think when you start teaching yourself on your own and you think you can, it becomes, the training was good enough. So if you said, “Let’s focus on the pandemic.” That’s what started it, the downward spiral. But we even saw the downward spiral before the pandemic, and it was the vendors that started to offer the training that we were offering themselves.

SO: So instead of a third-party, certainly a third-party, mostly independent organization offering training on a specific software application, the vendors said, “We’re going to offer official training.”

KS: Correct. And it started with some of these vendors rolling out their training at conferences. And I attended these conferences as a speaker. I won’t name the software, I won’t name the vendor, but I would just tell you I would go there and I would say, “Well, what’s this certificate thing you’re running there?” It’s a certificate of participation. But as I saw people walking around, they would say, “I’m now certified.” And I go, “You’re not certified after a three-hour program. You now have some knowledge.” They thought they were certified and experts, but they wouldn’t know they weren’t qualified until told to do a job. And then they would find out, “I’m not qualified to do this job.” But that certificate course, which was just a couple of hours by this particular vendor, morphed into a full day certificate. They were charging now a lot of money for it, which morphed into a multi-day thing, which now has destroyed any opportunity for training that we have. And that’s when I started noticing a downward spiral. Tracking finances, it would be your investments going down, down, down, down this thing. It’s like a plane, head and nose down.

SO: And we’ve seen something similar. I mean, back in the day, and I do actually… So for those of you listening at home that are not in this generation, PageMaker was the sort of grandparent of InDesign. I am also familiar with PageMaker and I think my first work in computer stuff was in that space. So now we’ve all dated ourselves. But back in the day we did a decent amount of in-person training. We had a training classroom in one of our offices at one point.

Now, we were never as focused on it as you are and were, but we did a decent business of public-facing, scheduled two-day, three-day, “Come to our office and we’ll train you on the things.” And then over time, that kind of dropped off and we got away from doing training because it was so difficult. And this is longer ago than you’re talking about. So the pattern that you’re describing where instructor-led in-person training, a classroom training with everybody in the same room kind of got disrupted a while back. We made a decent living doing that for a long time and there was-

KS: Made a great living doing that. Oh, my God. That was the thing.

SO: But we got away from it, because it got harder and harder to put the right people in the right classes and get people to travel and come to us. So then there’s online training, which we kind of got rid of training. You sort of pivoted to online/ virtual. And then ultimately, the pandemic has made it such, from my point of view, that the vast majority of what we do in this space is custom. We’re doing a big implementation project. We do some custom training that might be in-person, on-site, but much more often it is online, live online instructor-led, but custom. Because all of the companies that we’re dealing with, even if people did return to office, very much they’re fragmented, right? It’s two people here and five people there, and four people there and one in every state. And so, bringing them all together into a classroom is not just bring the instructor in, but bring everybody in and it costs a fortune. And that’s before we get into the question of, can they get across the borders and can they travel?

There’s visa issues, there’s admin issues, people have caregiving responsibilities, they can’t travel. There’s a whole bunch of stuff that goes into actually relocating from point A to point B to do a class at point B. So fine. Okay. So along comes the pandemic that really pushes on the virtualization, right? The virtual stuff. And then you’re saying the vendors get into it and they are clawing back some of this revenue for themselves. They’re basically saying, “We’re going to do official vendor-approved stuff, which then makes it very difficult as a third-party, because you have to walk that line, and I’ve been there, you have to walk that line between, we are delivering training on this product which belongs to somebody else, and we can be maybe a little more forthright about the issues in the product because it’s not our product. So we’re just going to say, “Hey, there’s an issue over here. It doesn’t really work. Do it this other way.” Not toeing the official party line. Okay, so we have all of that going on and all of those challenges already. And now along comes AI. So what does AI do to this environment that you’re describing?

KS: It further destroys it. I’ll give you an example. My blog, Typepad, we received an email September 1st, 2025, and we’re recording this September 4th, 2025, okay? So three days ago I got an email saying, “Hello, we’re shutting down. Sorry.” And I’m like, “What? Yeah, you’ve got 30 days to get your stuff out of here.” Basically being kicked out of your apartment or your house. So I’m like, “All right, well, go to AI and I asked AI, what is the top blog software?” They said, “WordPress.” Love it or hate it, okay. So I went to WordPress. I had no idea how to use WordPress. I had no staff available to help me. So I had to get my stuff out of Typepad and on and on it went. I went to AI, ChatGPT specifically, and I said, “Teach me how to use WordPress,” and specifically how to get my crap out of TypePad. I say crap, my stuff out of TypePad. In a matter of what? Two days I had everything transferred over.

So, didn’t need training, otherwise I would’ve had to go to training to learn how to do that and I didn’t have to. So that’s an example of there’s probably a training company out there that’d be happy to teach me how to use WordPress. I didn’t have the time, I didn’t have the resources, nothing. So I just did it on my own. That’s one example of how you can use AI to replace the training. There’s other examples of training that is not just good enough, it’s fine. It’s good. It’s good. It’s not lacking. When I don’t know how to do something these days, I go right to YouTube and look for a video to teach me how to do it. So given that, some industries where you can’t get away with that. Healthcare as an example, you’re not going to learn how to do brain surgery that you could rely on with AI or video through YouTube.

SO: We hope.

KS: We hope. “Hey, relax. I know this is your first time, Sarah, I’m your surgeon. I watched a video yesterday, I feel pretty good about it as I grab that saw.” I don’t believe you’re going to be comfortable with that. So listen, it’s bad enough. And you mentioned the vendor that is now offering training. So vendor pullback, they want that for a revenue source. This particular vendor is using it as a revenue tool, but there’s also vendors out there that are actively stopping you from offering training classes, and on it goes.

SO: Yeah, I do want to talk about that one a little bit. I know nothing about the specifics of your situation, but this is a losing battle. Because you were just talking about YouTube, I was doing some research for a very, very, very large company that makes farm equipment and I went looking for their content. And they had content on their website, it was like type in your product name or product number and it would give you the official user manual, which was of course ugly and terrible. But I discovered that if you typed in something like, “How do I fix the breaks on my X, Y, Z product?” It would take you to YouTube. And it would take you to this YouTube channel that had a lot of subscribers and was in fact not at all the official company YouTube channel.

KS: It was a dude who was working on it?

SO: It was a dude in Warsaw, North Carolina, which is not the same as Warsaw, Poland. It is a tiny, tiny, tiny little place, mostly known for me as being halfway between where I am and the beach. It’s where we stop to get gas and summer peaches and corn from the farm stand and fried chicken on our way to the beach, because that’s the thing we do. That’s where Warsaw is. It has a population of, I don’t know, 3,000 maybe.

KS: Okay, yeah.

SO: I have no idea. But there’s some guy who works for the dealership there who’s making these videos explaining how to do maintenance on these, in this case tractors, and he has got the audience. Not the official website, which by the way does not have a YouTube channel that I’m aware of, or at least that I could find now. This was five, 10 years ago. It has been a while. But so, there’s all this third-party content out there and there’s this ecosystem of content because it’s digital. You can’t really control that unless, we were talking about this earlier, unless you’re doing something like nuclear weapons, intelligence work, or maybe brain surgery. You can probably control those things. That’s about it. Clearly things are changing and not for the better. If your revenue is built on instructor-led, whether in-person or online, it sounds as though things are changing and not for the better in that space specifically, unless we’re training on brain surgery, which most of us are not. So what’s the path forward?

KS: I’m thinking about it, actually.

SO: I am not signing up for you to do my brain surgery.

KS: I need someone to practice on. Sarah, let me know if you’re available.

SO: Oh, I’m so sorry, you’re breaking up. I can’t hear you. Okay, so what does the path forward look like? I mean, what does it mean to be inside this disruption and where do you go from here?

KS: Okay, so every training company that I have contacts in, they’re all down significantly. The ones that are surviving have government contracts.

SO: Mm-hmm.

KS: And that is to develop training in all of its guises, that primarily they’re seeing a call for virtual reality training. That’s really, really hot right now. But not the virtual reality training that you can create with the Captivates and the Storylines of the world. That’s too lowbrow. They’re talking about immersive, almost gamification, where you build a world. So if that’s your expertise, you can create training in that. That’s what people want. It looks like augmented reality and virtual reality.

I can’t see it. Maybe I’m of a certain age that I’m like, “I’m not putting goggles on to take my training.” But that is pretty popular with other generations. So you can’t ignore it, I think, embrace it. So government contracts, if you can get that, you’ll be okay in the training business. Several of my colleagues have actually done that. So that’s a leg up. The other is to embrace asynchronous training and put your materials out there that live now forever. So I ignored for years these providers of asynchronous training where you put your content there and they sell it for you. I’ve got five classes on Udemy now, and each of them sells pretty well.

Matter of fact, my Captivate Udemy is one of their bestsellers. That does not translate into offsetting the revenue lost from your training gigs when you were bringing in six, seven, $800 a person for a training class. Our prices were between $695 and $895 per person to take a public class, but it certainly does bring in some revenue. So if you have the ability to create the asynchronous training, the video training, and make it really, really good training, really impactful, then that’s going to help you stay in the game as long as you can. I also think embracing AI versus getting under the covers and just, “I don’t want to see it,” is not the way to go.

I now use AI as a tool. I don’t think it replaces me, I think that I have more to offer in guiding the course than AI, but it gives me a nice, “Get me started here.” Maybe you’ve got a little writer’s block, maybe just getting started. It’s a beautiful day out, I can’t get started. Have AI start, you’ve started up. But if you’re going to go that route and you have AI make suggestions, you better fact check it. And just as an example, I was just curious, I asked ChatGPT to create an exam for Articulate Storyline. That is a tool I know really well, I’ve written exams for Storyline and Captivate and Camtasia. I said, “Write an exam. I want to see what you come up with.” And some of the questions were actually worded better than what I had done. They were very similar questions. And I go, “I kind of like the way you, AI, did that.” Which was kind of a bummer. But I would say a good 30% of what I read, while it was well-written, was completely wrong.

SO: Yes, confidently wrong.

KS: Yes, it was confidently wrong. Asking questions, “When you do this on storyline, what is the correct thing? What do you do?” And Storyline doesn’t do that thing. They were talking about Rise as an example. I’m like, “You’ve gone and combined Rise with Storyline.” So if you’re going to use AI, it’s the way you ask the question, your prompts. So get some training on engineering your prompts and fact-checking what you get from those prompts. But I use AI every day in my writing to make sure I don’t have grammar issues. So I’ll tell AI, “Check this for clarity and grammar.” So it’s my words, but it now is saying, “Well, there’s a couple typos, I fix that. And a couple of dangling modifiers, I fix that.” So it makes me feel like I’m writing better. But do keep in mind, if you put your stuff into ChatGPT, it’s now part of this mass of stuff that other people are going to get access to.

So you can’t copyright anything that you put in AI. I wrote a book about copyright and training materials and things to think about, because we have a lot of people finding an image of a nice puppy on Google and using it in their training, and that puppy was copyrighted. So anything you do on AI, any photos that get created, any artwork, anything, any writing can’t be copyrighted because only a human can get a copyright. So that’s something to think about. If you have something really, really good, you really didn’t create that, so you can’t copyright it.

You’re going to have to adapt. You’re going to have to adapt or you’re going to fail in the training industry, again, unless it’s very specific niche markets, or as you mentioned, custom training. If you don’t adapt, you’re going to fail. And that adaptation is going to be, embrace AI asynchronous training to put your training out there, available 24 hours a day, seven days a week when you can’t do it. And that’ll offset getting these onesies and twosies in your class.

SO: And it removes the time-bound, I have to set aside these two hours or these four hours of this day to be in the classroom, whether virtual or not if it’s live. I do think that this idea that we’re going to see a split between things that go higher and higher end that people are willing to pay nearly anything for versus the low-end where the price is going… There’s going to be downward pressure on the price for all the low-end stuff, because the barrier to entry to producing asynchronous training is pretty minimal and it gets lower every single day because there’s so many people out there that can potentially do that.

KS: Anybody can hang out a shingle and say that they’re an expert. So I mean, it’s the credentials of the trainer too, I think. Who is the person that’s teaching this? Is it what we call it, Chuck with a truck? Is it Chuck with a truck? Or is it someone who has actually done this? I wouldn’t want to get trained on handling my content by someone who hadn’t done it. I’d want you to handle that, right? So a content strategy. “I mean, who came up with that strategy? Oh, Bob. Has Bob ever done it? No, but he feels good about it. No, I want to get a Sarah who’s done it for years and years and years.”

SO: Yeah, I mean that’s an interesting point though, because at the end of the day, if you commoditize/ productized training, you’re going to have a product as the asynchronous training that’s a package, and you get what you get. When it’s live with an instructor, you’re going to get that instructor on that day in that context. They’re feeling good, they’re feeling bad. The classroom dynamics are good or bad or weird. Every experience is going to be different. Whereas with async, it’s always going to be the same. I mean, barring internet connectivity or something, as the learner, you’re going to get a consistent experience. Now, it’s not going to be the best possible experience, right? Because the best possible experience is you’re in a group with some other people in a room with an amazing instructor.

KS: That is the best.

SO: That is the best.

KS: There’s good too-

SO: It costs the earth.

KS: Yeah, there’s good too, the asynchronous training, because it’s always the same, it’s going to be consistent. How many times have you read a live class and the attendees, one of the attendees just spoiled the sauce? And you’re reminding me now, a colleague of mine, they were doing their certification as a certified technical trainer, CTT, and back in those days, you actually had to record yourself teaching.

SO: Oh, yes, there was a VHS tape of me and kids. That is video, pre-digital video.

KS: That is correct. VHS tape. And I had to do the same thing, but I remember for this one colleague of mine, and the students in this classroom, fake classroom, were other trainers that were also getting the recording done. And I remember she was being recorded and it was over her shoulder looking at the students, because she had to show the students. And one of these students, she made a comment that she knew was correct, and the student shook her head, “Nope, nope. That’s not right. Nope.” And the trainer is now, “What are you doing? Why are you shaking your head no and contradicting one of us? How about just nod?” And so, at some point God had turned around where the students started shaking their head, but realize, “Oh my God, you’re defeating all of us in this room.”

So yes, that was to your point, that the training can vary wildly in a live class, whether it’s virtual or on-site, based on the attendees. Because listen, I’ve been teaching Captivate since it was called RoboDemo, so years and years and years and years, and no class has ever been the same. No two classes are the same and it’s all based on the dynamics of the students in my live class. And you get one person in there who is stuck, can’t move forward, file open is a mystery. Go to the file menu, choose open. How do you do that? Okay, mouse skills. All of that can either derail or can help your class. Funny moments, whatever they may be. But asynchronous training, if you do it right, is always consistently good. The problem is there’s no live interaction. So you can’t ask that instructor, “Well, what do you think about this? What do you think about that?”

So yeah, you made me laugh when you mentioned that, that the dynamics of your live class, you better be fast on your feet to be a live trainer. So I am not saying, if you’re going to teach virtually, you shouldn’t know how to do it. Because listen, I think you’ll agree, there is a vast difference between teaching a class live on-site versus live online, or God forbid, live online and live on-site, where you’re doing both at the same time. Or if you’re going to do blended learning, you’ve got to mix all three, you better know what you’re doing as a facilitator and a trainer to do that or you’ll fall flat on your feet.

You’ll hear all kinds of complaints that people who teach these live classes on-site that now incorporate virtual, and they ignore the virtual audience completely. So the virtual audience is not included in the training, they feel like they’re watching a recording. So you’ve got to know how to engage this audience. I’m actually really stunned, Sarah, that conferences still survive on-site. We mentioned a couple of times before we turned on this recording, why are those conferences live on-site? People are going there to network face-to-face. I guess that’s the big one, but not the content that you’re learning. That content could have been taught virtually.

SO: Yeah, I’ve had the position for a long time that the most important part of a conference is the hallway track, right? The conversations at lunch, in the hallway, and in the exhibit hall and everywhere else. There’s a couple that are doing online in addition to in-person, and typically the-

KS: ATD does that. Yeah, does a good job at that. Yeah.

SO: Yeah, LavaCon is doing that, they’re coming up. But yeah, they have an online track with a chat, a pretty lively chat, and then they also have the in-person version if you can get there in-person.

KS: Which is successful only if the facilitator addresses the online chat, if the facilitator addresses someone who’s virtual. Yeah.

SO: And fun fact, Phylise Banner has been running that for years and years and years and has done a fantastic job of exactly that, of making sure that the online people get into the conversation, even when there’s 200 people in the room and another couple hundred on the chat, and she’s making sure that they get their questions into the discussion. Okay, so that was cheerful, and that made me feel better, because the first half hour of this was super not encouraging. So I think I’m going to close us out there because I’m pretty sure we could go on forever, but let’s leave it there. Kevin, thank you for coming and for giving us the inside information on what’s happening in training land. And hopefully I’ll see you again somewhere in-person at a conference.

KS: Or virtual, with the camera is fine. So yeah, great working with you, Sarah. Thanks for having me.

SO: Great to see you. Bye.

Conclusion with ambient background music

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