Your organization’s content debt costs more than you think. In this podcast, host Sarah O’Keefe and guest Dipo Ajose-Coker unpack the five stages of content debt from denial to action. Sarah and Dipo share how to navigate each stage to position your content—and your AI—for accuracy, scalability, and global growth.

The blame stage: “It’s the tools. It’s the process. It’s the people.” Technical writers hear, “We’re going to put you into this department, and we’ll get this person to manage you with this new agile process,” or, “We’ll make you do things this way.” The finger-pointing begins. Tech teams blame the authors. Authors blame the CMS. Leadership questions the ROI of the entire content operations team. This is often where organizations say, “We’ve got to start making a change.” They’re either going to double down and continue building content debt, or they start looking for a scalable solution.

— Dipo Ajose-Coker

Related links:

• Scriptorium: Technical debt in content operations
• Scriptorium: AI and content: Avoiding disaster
• RWS: Secrets of Successful Enterprise AI Projects: What Market Leaders Know About Structured Content
• RWS: Maximizing Your CCMS ROI: Why Data Beats Opinion
• RWS: Accelerating Speed to Market: How Structured Content Drives Competitive Advantage (Medical Devices)
• RWS: The all-in-one guide to structured content: benefits, technology, and AI readiness

LinkedIn:

• Dipo Ajose-Coker
• Sarah O’Keefe

Transcript:

Introduction with ambient background music

Christine Cuellar: From Scriptorium, this is Content Operations, a show that delivers industry-leading insights for global organizations.

Bill Swallow: In the end, you have a unified experience so that people aren’t relearning how to engage with your content in every context you produce it.

SO: Change is perceived as being risky; you have to convince me that making the change is less risky than not making the change.

Alan Pringle: And at some point, you are going to have tools, technology, and processes that no longer support your needs, so if you think about that ahead of time, you’re going to be much better off.

End of introduction

Sarah O’Keefe: Hey, everyone. I’m Sarah O’Keefe and I’m here today with Dipo Ajose-Coker. He is a Solutions Architect and Strategy at RWS and based in France. His strategy work is focused on content technology. Hey, Dipo.

Dipo Ajose-Coker: Hey there, Sarah. Thanks for having me on.

SO: Yeah, how are you doing?

DA-C: Hanging in there. It’s a sunny, cold day, but the wind’s blowing.

SO: So in this episode, we wanted to talk about moving forward with your content and how you can make improvements to it and address some of the gaps that you have in terms of development and delivery and all the rest of it. And Dipo’s come up with a way of looking at this that is a framework that I think is actually extremely helpful. So Dipo, tell us about how you look at content debt.

DA-C: Okay, thanks. First of all, I think before I go into my little thing that I put up, what is content debt? I think it’d be great to talk about that. It’s kind of like technical debt. It refers to that future work that you keep storing up because you’ve been taking shortcuts to try and deliver on time. You’ve let quality slip. You’ve had consultants come in and out every three months, and they’ve just been putting… I mean writing consultants.

SO: These consultants.

DA-C: And they’ve been basically doing stuff in a rush to try and get your product out on time. And over time, those sort of little errors, those sort of shortcuts will build up and you end up with missing metadata or inconsistent styles. The content is okay for now, but as you go forward, you find you’re building up a big debt of all these little fixes. And these little fixes will eventually add up and then end up as a big debt to pay.

SO: And I saw an interesting post just a couple of days ago where somebody said that tech debt or content debt, you could think of it as having principle and interest and the interest accumulates over time. So the less work you do to pay down your content debt, the bigger and bigger and bigger it gets, right? It just keeps snowballing and eventually you find yourself with an enormous problem. So as you were looking at this idea of content debt, you came up with a framework for looking at this that is at once shiny and new and also very familiar. So what was it?

DA-C: Yeah, really familiar. I think everyone’s heard of the five stages of grief, and I thought, “Well, how about applying that to content debt?” And so I came up with the five stages of content debt. So let’s go into it.

I’m not going to keep referring to the grief part of it. You can all look it up, but the first stage is denial. “Our content is fine. We just need a better search engine. We can actually put it into this shiny new content delivery platform and it’s got this type of search,” and so on and so forth. Basically what you’re doing is you’re ignoring the growing mess. You’re duplicating content. You’ve got outdated docs. You’re building silos, and then you’re ignoring that these silos are actually getting even further and further apart. No one wants to admit that the CMS or whatever system, bespoke system that you’ve put into place, is just a patchwork of workarounds.

This quietly builds your content debt until, actually the longer denial lasts, the more expensive that cleanup is. As we said in that first bit, you want to pay off the capital of your debt as quickly as possible. Anyone with a mortgage knows that. You come into a little bit of money, pay off as much capital as you can so that you stop accruing that debt, the interest on the debt.

SO: And that is where when we talk about AI-based workflows, I feel like that is firmly situated in denial. Basically, “Yeah, we’ve got some issues, but the AI will fix it. The AI will make it all better.” Now, we painfully know that that’s probably not true, so we move ourselves out of denial. And then what?

DA-C: There we go into anger.

SO: Of course.

DA-C: “Why can’t we find anything? Why does every update take two weeks?” And that was a question we used to get regularly where I used to work at a global medical device manufacturer. We had to change one short sentence because a spec change and it took weeks to do that. Authors are wasting time looking for reusable content if they don’t have an efficient CCMS. Your review cycles drag through because all you’re doing is giving the entire 600-page PDF to the reviewer without highlighting what’s in there. Your translation costs balloon and your project managers or leadership gets angry because, “Well, we only changed one word. Can’t you just use Google Translate? It should only cost like five cents.” Compliance teams then start raising flags. And if you’re in a regulated industry, you don’t want the compliance teams on your back, and especially you don’t want to start having defects out in the field. So eventually, productivity drops, your teams feel like they’re stuck. And the cracks are now starting to show across other departments and you’re putting a bad name on your doc team.

SO: Yeah. And a lot of this, what you’ve got here, is the anger that’s focused inward to a certain extent. It’s the authors that are angry at everybody. I’ve also seen this play out as management saying, “Where are our docs? We have this team, we’re spending all this money, and updates take six months.” Or people submit update requests, tickets, something, the content doesn’t get into the docs, the docs don’t get updated. There’s a six-month lag. Now the SOP, the standard operating procedure, is out of sync with what people are actually doing on the factory floor, which it turns out, again, if you’re in medical devices, is extremely bad and will lead to your factory getting shut down, which is not what you want generally.

DA-C: Yeah, it’s not a good position to be in.

SO: And then there’s anger.

DA-C: Yeah.

SO: “Why aren’t they doing their job?” And yet you’ve got this group that’s doing the best that they can within their constraints, which are, as you said, in a lot of cases, very inefficient workflows, the wrong tool sets, not a lot of support, etc. Okay, so everybody’s mad. And then what?

DA-C: Everyone’s mad, and eventually, actually this is a closed little loop because all you then do is say, “Okay, well, we’re going to take a shortcut,” and you’ve just added to your content debt. So this stage is actually one of the most dangerous of the parts of it because all you end up trying to do without actually solving the problem is just add to the debt. “Let’s take a shortcut here, let’s do this.”

The next stage is now the blame stage. “It’s the tools. It’s the process. It’s the people.” These here and then you get calls of technical writers or, “Well, we’re going to put you into this department and we’ll get this person to rule you with this new agile process,” or, “We’ll get you to be doing it in this way.” The finger-pointing begins. Tech teams will blame the authors. Authors will blame the CMS. Leadership questions the ROI of the entire content operations team. This is often where organizations see that we’ve got to start making a change. They’re either going to double down and continue building that content debt or they start looking for a scalable solution.

SO: Right. And this is the point at which people look at it and say, “Why can’t we just use AI to fix all of this?”

DA-C: Yep, and we all know what happens when you point AI at garbage in. We’ve got the saying, and this saying has been true from the beginning of computing, garbage in, garbage out, GIGO.

SO: Time.

DA-C: Yeah. I changed that to computing.

SO: Yeah. It’s really interesting though because the blame that goes around, I’ve talked to a lot of executives who, and we’re right back to anger too, it is sort of like, “We’ve never had to invest in this before. Why are you telling us that this organization, this group, this tech writers, content ops,” whatever you want to call it, “that they are going to need enterprise tools just like everybody else?” And they are just halfway astounded and halfway offended that these worker bees that were running around doing their thing…

DA-C: Glorified secretaries.

SO: Yeah, that whole thing, like, “How dare they?” And it can be helpful, sometimes it is and sometimes it isn’t, to say, “Well, you’ve invested in tools for your developers. You wouldn’t dream of writing software without source control, I assume,” although let’s not go down the rabbit hole of vibe coding.

DA-C: Let’s not go down that one.

SO: And the fact that there are already people with the job title of vibe coding remediation specialist.

DA-C: Nice.

SO: Yeah. So that’s going to be a growth industry.

DA-C: That’s what, if you can get it.

SO: But this blame thing is we are saying, “This is an asset. You need to invest in it. You need to manage it. You need to depreciate it just like anything else. And if you don’t invest properly, you’re going to have some big problems.” And to your-

DA-C: A lot of that-

SO: Yeah, they don’t want to do it. They’re horrified.

DA-C: Yeah. A lot of that comes to looking at docs departments as cost centers. They’re costing us money. We’re paying all these people to produce this stuff that people don’t read. The users don’t want to. But if you look at it properly, deeply, the documentation department can be classed as a revenue generator. What are your sales teams pointing prospects at? They’re pointing at docs. Where are they getting the information about how things work? They’re pointing at the docs. What are you using? Especially if you’re having people looking through trying to find a solution?

I know I do this. I go and look at the user manuals. And first thing that I want to see in there that is properly written, if I see something that does not describe the gadget or whatever I’m trying to buy properly, then I’m like, “Well, if you’ve taken shortcuts there, you’ve probably done the same with the actual thing that I’m going to buy.” So I’m going to walk away.

Reducing costs for online centers. If your customers can find the information very quickly that describes the exact problem that they’re trying to solve, then you’ve got fewer calls to your online help center. And then while escalating onto the next person, because the level, I don’t know how this goes, level three, two, one, let’s say the level three is the lowest level, if that person can not find the information that is true, clear, one source of truth, then they’re going to escalate it onto that person who you’re paying a lot more, is at that level two, that person can’t find it, moved on. So it’s basically costing you a lot of money not to have good documentation. It’s a revenue generator.

SO: So my experience has been that the blame phase is perhaps the longest of all the phases.

DA-C: Yeah.

SO: And some organizations just get stuck there forever and they blame different people every year. I’ve also, I’m sure you’ve seen this as well, we were talking about reorganizing. “Well, okay, the tech writers are all in one group. Let’s burst them out and put them all on the product team.”

DA-C: Yes.

SO: “So you go on product team A and you go on product team B and you go on product team C.” And I talk to people about this and they say, “This is terrible and I don’t want to do it.” I’m like, “It’s fine, just wait two years.”

DA-C: Yeah.

SO: Because it won’t work, and then they’ll put them all back together. Ultimately, I’m not sure it matters whether they’re together or apart because we fall into this sort of weird intermediate thing. What matters is that somebody somewhere understands the value, to your point, and isn’t making the investment. I don’t care if you do that in a single group or in a cross-functional matrix, blah, blah, but here we are. All right. So eventually, hopefully, we exit blame.

DA-C: And then we move into acceptance.

SO: Do we?

DA-C: “Okay, we need a better way to manage that.” And this is like when people start contacting you, Sarah, it’s like, “I’ve heard there’s a better way to manage this. Somebody’s talked to me about there’s something called the component content management system or the structured content,” and all of this.

So teams start to acknowledge, one, that they’ve got debt and that debt is growing. Then they start auditing that content and then really seeing that, “Oh, well, yes, things are really going bad. We’ve got 15 versions of this same document living in different spaces in different countries. The translations always cost us a bomb.” So leadership then starts budgeting for a transformation.

This is where they then start doing their research to find structured content, competent reuse, they enter the conversation. If they look at their software departments, software departments reuse stuff. You’ve got libraries of objects. Variables is the simplest form of that reuse. And they’ve been using this for years. And so, “Well, why aren’t we doing this? Oh, there’s DITA, there’s metadata. We can govern our content better. We can collaborate using this tool.” So there is a better way to do this. And then we know what to do.

SO: I feel like a lot of times the people that reach out to us are in stage four, they’ve reached acceptance, but their management is still back in anger and bargaining and denial and all the rest of that.

DA-C: They’re still blaming and trying to find a reason.

SO: Yeah, blaming and all of it, just, “How dare you?” All right, so we acknowledge that we have a problem, which I think is actually the first step in a different step process, but okay.

DA-C: Yeah.

SO: And then what?

DA-C: And then there’s action. Let’s start fixing this before it gets totally out of control, before it gets worse. Then they start investing in structured content authoring platforms like Tridion Docs, I work for RWS, I’ve got to mention it. They start speaking with experts, doing that research, listening to their documentation team leaders, speaking with content strategists to define what the content model is, first of all, and then where can we optimize efficiency by having a reuse strategy? A reuse without a strategy is just asking for trouble. You’re basically going to end up duplicating content.

And then you’ve got to govern how that is used. What rules have you got in place and what ways have you got to implement those rules? The old job of having an editor used to work in the good old days where you’d print something off and somebody would sign it off and so on and so forth. Now, we’re having to deliver content really quickly and we’re using a lot of technology to do that. And so, well, you need to use technology to govern how that content is being created.

Then your content becomes an asset. It’s no longer a liability. This is where that transformation happens, and then you start paying down your content debt. You’re able to scale the content that you’re creating a lot faster without raising the number of the headcount, without having to hire more people. And if you want to then really expand, let’s say, because you’ve got this really great operation now and you’re able to create that content that takes hours and not weeks, then you’re able to expand your market. You’re able to say, “Okay, well, now we’re going to tackle the Brazilian market. Now, we can move into China because they’ve got different regulations.”

Again, I speak a lot on the regulatory side of things. That’s where I passed most of my time as a technical writer. Having different content for different regulatory regimes and so on is just such a headache where you don’t have something that is helping you with that structure, applying structure to that content, applying rules to that content, making sure that your workflows are carried out in the way that you set it out six months ago and people have changed and so on and they’re not doing their own thing again. If your organization is stuck at stages one to three, as I just mentioned it, it’s basically time to move.

SO: Yeah, I think it’s interesting thinking about this in the larger context of when we talk about writers, the act of writing, right?

DA-C: Yes.

SO: Culturally, that word or that process is really loaded with this idea of a single human in an attic somewhere writing the great American or French or British novel, writing a great piece of literature or creating a piece of art on their own, by themselves, in solitude. And of course, we know that technical writing-

DA-C: Starting at A and going all the way to Z.

SO: And we know that technical writing is not that at all, but it does really feel as though when we describe what it means to be a writer or a content creator in a structured content environment, it is just the 180 degree opposite of what it means to be a writer. It’s not the same thing. You are a creator of these little components. They all get put together. We need consistent voice and tone. You have to kind of subordinate your own voice and your own style to the corporate style and to the regulatory and to all the rest of it. And so it’s just this sort of… I think we maybe sometimes underestimate the level of cultural push and pull that there is between what it is to be a writer and what it is to be a technical writer.

DA-C: Yes.

SO: Or a technical communicator or content creator, whatever you want to call that role. Okay, so we’ve talked about a lot of this and then we’ve not talked a lot about AI, but a big chunk of this is that when you move into an environment where you are using AI for end users to access your content, so they go through a chatbot to get to the content or they’re consulting ChatGPT or something like that, and asking, “Tell me about X.” All of the things that you’re describing in terms of content debt play into the AI not performing, the content not getting in there, not being delivered. So what does it look like? What are some of the specifics of good source content, of paying down the debt and moving into this environment where the content is getting better? What does that mean? What do I actually have to do? We’ve talked about tools.

DA-C: Yeah. So first, you’ve got to understand how AI accesses content and how large language models get trained. AI interprets patterns as meaning. If your content deviates from pattern predictability, then you’re going to get what we call hallucinations. And so asking the ChatGPT without having it plugged as an enterprise AI thing where you’ve really trained it on your own content, you get all sorts of hallucinations. Basically, they’ve taken two PDFs that have similar information, but two different conclusions. And so you’re looking for a conclusion in document A, but ChatGPT has given you the one in B. And it’s mixed and matched those because it does not know how one bit of information relates to the other.

So good source content needs to be accurate. Your facts are correct. They reflect the current state of the product or subject. It needs to be kept up to date. You need to have single copies of it, that’s what we talk about, a single source of truth. You can not have two sources of truth. It’s either black or it’s white. There are no gray zones with AI, it will hallucinate. You’ve got to have that consistency in style and tone.

How do you get that? Well, you’ve got the brand and the way we speak. In French, you would say, “Do you vouvoie or do you tutoie?” Do use the formal voice, formal tone, or do you speak like you’re speaking with your friends? How do you enforce some of that? Well, you can use controlled terminology. These are special terms that you’ve defined, a special voice. But the gold part of it is having that structured formatting and presentation. There’s always a logical structure and sequence to the way that you present that information. Your heading, subheading, steps, lists, are always displayed in the same way. You’ve defined an information architecture to then give that pattern. And the way AI then understands or creates relationships with those patterns is from the metadata that you’re adding onto it.

And so good source content is accurate, up to date, consistent in style and tone, uses control terminology, has structure in formatting. Forget the presentation because that you put on the end of things, in that what it looks like, how pretty it is. But the presentation in terms of I always start with a short description and then I follow up with the required tools. And then I describe any prerequisites, and that is the way every one of my writers are contributing towards this central repository of knowledge, this single repository of knowledge.

And you can do that as well if you’ve got a great CCMS by using templates, building templates into that CCMS so that it guides the author. And the author no longer has to think about, “Oh, how is this going to look? Should I be coloring my tables green, red, blue? Should they be this wide?” They’re basically filling in a template form. And some of the standards that we’ve developed like DITA allow you to do this, allow you to have a particular pattern for creating that information and the ability to put it into a template which is managed by your CCMS.

SO: Yeah, and that’s the roadmap, right? We talk about how as a human, if I’m looking at content and I notice that it’s formatted differently, like, “Oh, they bolded this word here but not there,” and I start thinking, “Well, was that meaningful?”

DA-C: Yeah.

SO: And at some point, I decide, “No, it was just sloppy and somebody screwed up and didn’t bold the thing.” But AI will infer meaning from pattern deviations.

DA-C: Yeah.

SO: And so the more consistent the information is in all the levels that you’ve described, the more likely it is that it will process it correctly and give you the right outcome. Okay, so that seems like maybe the place that we need to wrap this up and say, folks, you have content debt. Dipo is giving you a handy roadmap for how to understand your content debt and understand the process of coming to terms with your content debt, and then figuring out how and where to move forward. So any closing thoughts on that before we say good luck to everybody?

DA-C: Basically before, or, I mean, most enterprises today have already jumped on the AI bandwagon. They’re already trying to put it in, but at the same time, start taking a look at your content to ensure that it is structured and has semantic meaning to it. Because the day that you then start training your large language model on that, if you’ve not built those relationships into it, it’s like teaching a kid bad habits. They’re going to just continue doing it. It’s basically train your AI right the first time by having content that is structured and semantic, and you’ll find your AI outcomes are a lot more successful.

SO: So I’m hearing that AI is basically a toddler? Okay. Well, I think we’ll leave it there. Dipo, thanks, it’s great to see you as always.

DA-C: Thanks for having me.

SO: Everybody, thank you for joining us, and we’ll see you on the next one.

Conclusion with ambient background music

CC: Thank you for listening to Content Operations by Scriptorium. For more information, visit Scriptorium.com or check the show notes for relevant links.

Want more content ops insights? Download our book, Content Transformation.

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