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HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons hosts the most downloaded sports podcast of all time, with a rotating crew of celebrities, athletes, and media staples, as well as mainstays like Cousin Sal, Joe House, and a slew of other friends and family members who always happen to be suspiciously available.
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In this conversation, I talk with clinical psychologist and author Dr. Naomi Fisher about self-directed education, and why it can be such a powerful approach for neurodivergent kids, especially those with a PDA profile. Naomi shares why agency is so important in learning, how traditional school can chip away at a child’s self-worth, and what it looks like when we truly support demand-avoidant kids in ways that work for them. We also get into the challenges parents face when stepping outside the norm and why keeping the parent-child relationship at the center is key.
About Dr. Naomi Fisher
Dr. Naomi Fisher is a clinical psychologist who specialises in trauma, autism and alternative education. She is the author of several books including When the Naughty Step Makes Things Worse and the Teenager’s Guide to Burnout. She runs webinars for parents and more of her work can be found at www.naomifisher.co.uk
Things you'll learn from this episode
- Why agency in learning is essential for neurodivergent children to build confidence, reduce anxiety, and stay engaged
- How self-directed education supports children—especially those with PDA—by minimizing pressure and honoring their natural pace
- Why respecting a child’s right to say no is foundational for creating a safe, trust-based learning environment
- How understanding the cycle of demand avoidance helps reframe “bad behavior” as a response to overwhelm, not defiance
- Why shifting away from rigid definitions of academic success can open the door to more authentic growth and capability
- How prioritizing the parent-child relationship and finding community support helps families confidently navigate less conventional paths
Resources mentioned
- A Different Way to Learn by Naomi Fisher
- Eliza Fricker Talks About Parenting a Child with PDA (Tilt Parenting Podcast)
- The Family Experience of PDA by Eliza Fricker
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