Audio is being added to AI everywhere: both in multimodal models that can understand and generate audio and in applications that use audio for input. Now that we can work with spoken language, what does that mean for the applications that we can develop? How do we think about audio interfaces—how will people use them, and what will they want to do? Raiza Martin, who worked on Google’s groundbreaking NotebookLM, joins Ben Lorica to discuss how she thinks about audio and what you can build with it.

Timestamps

• 0:00: Introduction to Raiza Martin, who cofounded Huxe and formerly led Google’s NotebookLM team. What made you think this was the time to trade the comforts of big tech for a garage startup?
• 1:01: It was a personal decision for all of us. It was a pleasure to take NotebookLM from an idea to something that resonated so widely. We realized that AI was really blowing up. We didn’t know what it would be like at a startup, but we wanted to try. Seven months down the road, we’re having a great time.
• 1:54: For the 1% who aren’t familiar with NotebookLM, give a short description.
• 2:06: It’s basically contextualized intelligence, where you give NotebookLM the sources you care about and NotebookLM stays grounded to those sources. One of our most common use cases was that students would create notebooks and upload their class materials, and it became an expert that you could talk with.
• 2:43: Here’s a use case for homeowners: put all your user manuals in there.
• 3:14: We have had a lot of people tell us that they use NotebookLM for Airbnbs. They put all the manuals and instructions in there, and users can talk to it.
• 3:41: Why do people need a personal daily podcast?
• 3:57: There are a lot of different ways that I think about building new products. On one hand, there are acute pain points. But Huxe comes from a different angle: What if we could try to build very delightful things? The inputs are a little different. We tried to imagine what the average person’s daily life is like. You wake up, you check your phone, you travel to work; we thought about opportunities to make something more delightful. I think a lot about TikTok. When do I use it? When I’m standing in line. We landed on transit time or commute time. We wanted to do something novel and interesting with that space in time. So one of the first things was creating really personalized audio content. That was the provocation: What do people want to listen to? Even in this short time, we’ve learned a lot about the amount of opportunity.
• 6:04: Huxe is mobile first, audio first, right? Why audio?
• 6:45: Coming from our learnings from NotebookLM, you learn fundamentally different things when you change the modality of something. When I go on walks with ChatGPT, I just talk about my day. I noticed that was a very different interaction from when I type things out to ChatGPT. The flip side is less about interaction and more about consumption. Something about the audio format made the types of sources different as well. The sources we uploaded to NotebookLM were different as a result of wanting audio output. By focusing on audio, I think we’ll learn different use cases than the chat use cases. Voice is still largely untapped.
• 8:24: Even in text, people started exploring other form factors: long articles, bullet points. What kinds of things are available for voice?
• 8:49: I think of two formats: one passive and one interactive. With passive formats, there are a lot of different things you can create for the user. The things you end up playing with are (1) what is the content about and (2) how flexible is the content? Is it short, long, malleable to user feedback? With interactive content, maybe I’m listening to audio, but I want to interact with it. Maybe I want to join in. Maybe I want my friends to join in. Both of those contexts are new. I think this is what’s going to emerge in the next few years.