Michael chats with Erasmus University Rotterdam's Julien-Francois Gerber about how debt impacts our ability to rethink growth. They discuss the relationship between credit and growth, and how debt affects the environment and us as people. Julien gives us a history lesson on why we traditionally borrowed money and brings to life past monetary alternatives like decaying money, social credit, and prosperity certificates. He also covers anti-debt conflicts, debtors unions, community alternatives to debt, and the role of shame in perpetuating debt. Lastly, he offers advice on what you can do to have an impact.