Dr. Jordan B. Peterson speaks with psychologist and autism researcher Dr. Simon Baron-Cohen about the nature of empathy, systemizing, and the neurological basis of autism. This needed conversation explores how humans develop theory of mind, the differences between cognitive and affective empathy, and why some individuals gravitate toward systems over social interaction. They discuss the evolutionary roots of invention, gender differences in cognition, and how autistic traits relate to creativity and pattern recognition. Unflinchingly, they also discuss the darker side of empathy deficits—including psychopathy and cruelty—raising urgent questions about compassion, human development, and our capacity for evil.
Professor of Psychology and Psychiatry at the University of Cambridge, Simon Baron-Cohen is Director of the Autism Research Centre and a global leader in autism research. He pioneered the 'mindblindness' and 'empathizing-systemizing' theories, has authored over 770 scientific papers, and was knighted in 2021 for his contributions to autism understanding. His work spans clinical practice, public education, and cutting-edge research on cognitive sex differences, empathy, and neurodiversity.
This episode was filmed on July 5th, 2025
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For Simon Baron-Cohen:
On X https://x.com/sbaroncohen?lang=en
Read Dr. Baron-Cohen’s most recent book, as discussed in the show, “The Pattern Seekers: How Autism Drives Human Invention” https://a.co/d/9hsG5MR
| Chapters |
(0:00) Coming up
(0:44) Intro
(1:47) How we understand other people: gender, sex, systemetizing and empathizing
(10:51) Is psychopathy emergent from delayed maturity?
(18:59) Why the classification of autism has broadened
(30:03) Temple Grandin: abstraction, attention to detail, and unifying narratives
(42:43) How different thinking types use myth making as a tool
(59:55) Sex and temperament—biting the bullet
(1:09:11) The BIG mistake in how we parody disagreeable temperaments
(1:18:31) The science of evil: why our species is knowingly cruel
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