What happens when the church is so committed to “saving marriages” that it accidentally protects wolves and sacrifices the wounded?

In this follow-up conversation to their interview with Mandy, Todd and Laura (with Producer Kelly on mic) zoom in on patterns of abuse—especially in “Christian” marriages—and why so many church responses actually make things worse.

They unpack:

• The cycle of abuse – honeymoon → tension → incident → rupture/repair → honeymoon again… and why pastors usually get invited in right at the fake “repair” stage when the abuser is on their absolute best behavior.

• “It was just a joke” and other minimizations – how sexual comments, subtle threats, containment (“you’re not allowed to leave this room”), and constant criticism create little-t trauma that’s just as real and damaging over time.

• Predators who “find Jesus” – Todd talks about manipulators who use a dramatic conversion story, a new Bible, and all the right language as a hard reset so they can keep abusing for another decade—especially in churches that confuse love with tolerance.

• When headship becomes ownership – Laura traces how wedding imagery (unity candles, sand ceremonies) and bad teaching about “submission” can turn wives into property, conditioning them to accept patterns of control as “godly.”

• Why traditional marriage counseling can be dangerous – the crew explains why joint counseling with a true narcissist or chronic abuser usually just arms him with new weapons, and why separate counseling and clear boundaries are often safer and wiser.

• Real change vs. performance – they contrast slow, quiet, Spirit-led growth (measured in 5-degree shifts over years) with the instant, 100% overnight “I’m a new man!” transformation that’s almost always pure manipulation.

If you’re a pastor, elder, small-group leader, or friend walking with someone in a destructive marriage, this episode will help you:

• Stop treating entrenched abuse like a “communication issue”

• Recognize that repeated patterns matter more than teary apologies

• Understand why sometimes the most Christlike response is removing a wolf, not sending a lamb back into the pen with him

And if you’re the one who’s been told you’re “overreacting,” “too sensitive,” or “not submissive enough,” this conversation is a reminder: you’re not crazy, your nervous system isn’t lying, and you are not the second sacrificial lamb.

References

Scripture mentioned
None explicitly cited in this episode (discussion centers on theology of marriage, abuse, and church practice rather than specific verse exposition).

Other references

• Prior Naughty vs Nice episode featuring Mandy (licensed clinical mental health counseling associate) on trauma, attachment, and the brain

• General secular domestic violence statistics and narcissistic abuse literature (especially around lethality risk when a woman returns after physical violence)

• Dateline (NBC true-crime series) as an anecdotal reference point for common abuse narratives in church contexts