Johan brings decades of experience in open infrastructure and a front-row seat to the evolution of cloud computing. We talk about why Europe still leans so heavily on U.S. cloud platforms, and the real-world risks that come with that dependency whether it's pricing, control, or strategic leverage.

We get into the friction points that keep Europe from moving faster: outdated procurement practices, broken incentive structures, and the lack of deep technical understanding inside policymaking circles. Johan also shares what it's been like building on OpenStack from the early days, and what Cleura has learned about scaling sovereign infrastructure in a space dominated by hyperscalers.

I really enjoyed diving into how cloud-native tools like Kubernetes can unlock more flexibility and how standardization could help level the playing field for smaller providers. We also touch on the limitations of regulation when enforcement is missing, and why alignment between government goals and operational behavior is long overdue.

Whether you're in cloud infrastructure, policy, or just curious about how Europe can chart its own course, this one's packed with insight.