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HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons hosts the most downloaded sports podcast of all time, with a rotating crew of celebrities, athletes, and media staples, as well as mainstays like Cousin Sal, Joe House, and a slew of other friends and family members who always happen to be suspiciously available.
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Too many product teams fall into a dangerous trap—they optimize for in-app engagement while forgetting the bigger picture: real behavior change.
In my latest episode of No Hacks Snacks, I sat down with Roos van Duijnhoven to break down the difference between:
✅ Designing for engagement – Keeping users interacting with your product.
✅ Designing for behavior change – Helping users take action outside the product.
Take fitness apps as an example:
🏋️♂️ Liking workouts & setting goals? Engagement.
🏃♂️ Actually going for a run? Behavior change.
We also explored:
🔹 The Little e vs. Big E framework for building better products
🔹 Why engagement ≠ impact (and what to measure instead)
🔹 How to create long-term value, not just short-term wins
💡 If you’re in UX, growth, or product design, this conversation is a must-watch!
Are you designing for engagement or behavior change? Drop your thoughts in the comments! 👇
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