In the newest episode of Student Affairs Voices from the Field, listeners are invited into a candid and inspiring conversation with Dr. Jessica Nathan Brown and Dae’lyn Do, the current Co-Chairs of NASPA’s Women in Student Affairs Knowledge Community (WISA KC). Hosted by Dr. Jill Creighton, this episode delves deep into what makes student affairs such a meaningful field, particularly through the lens of women’s leadership, mentorship, and wellbeing.

Jessica and Dae’lyn bring a wealth of experience to their roles—Jessica as Director of Student Leadership and Engagement at Alabama A&M University, and Dae’lyn as Associate Director for the Women in Science and Engineering Residence Program at the University of Michigan. Both share personal journeys into student affairs, marked by transformative mentorship and a dedication to empowering students from all backgrounds.

One of the episode’s main themes centers on WISA KC’s current focus, encapsulated by the acronym GLOW: Growth, Legacy, Openness, and Wellbeing. As Jessica explains, “We are trying to grow as professionals, leave legacies while honoring those before us, share our authentic stories, and prioritize wellbeing.” The discussion highlights that supporting the whole student—academically, personally, and emotionally—is at the heart of student affairs, and staff need to care for themselves to sustain this important work.

Dae’lyn reflects on how student affairs practitioners understand the field’s value through direct impact in students’ lives, but emphasizes that telling these stories to those outside the field remains a crucial ongoing challenge. She also underscores the importance of wellbeing, especially for women who often take on the nurturing roles on campus.

The episode doesn’t shy away from real-world issues: Jessica shares insights from her dissertation on burnout and turnover among entry-level staff, noting compensation and workload as key factors. Both leaders discuss strategies for supervisors to support early-career professionals, stressing flexibility, recognition, and creative ways to foster growth.

Listeners will find examples of impactful mentorship, stories of overcoming imposter syndrome, and actionable advice for supervisors and colleagues. If you’re interested in connecting with WISA KC, Dae’lyn and Jessica recommend subscribing to their newsletter, joining their LinkedIn group, and exploring volunteer opportunities.

Tune in for practical wisdom, personal stories, and a refreshing focus on wellbeing and authentic leadership in student affairs—this episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking inspiration and community within higher education.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices from the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts brought to you by naspa. We curate free and accessible professional development for higher ed pros wherever you happen to be. This is season 13 on the value of student affairs. I'm Dr. Jill Creighton. She her hers your SA voices from the Field host. Welcome back to our next episode of SA Voices from the Field. Today we're featuring our NASPA Co-Chairs of the WISA KC Dr.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:34]: Jessica Nathan Brown, a native of Birmingham, Alabama, serves as the Director of Student Leadership and Engagement at Alabama A and M University where she works to enhance student engagement and foster a sense of belonging on campus. In her role, she provides oversight for major campus events, Greek Life, Student Government, Student Publications, University Royalty Student Organizations, International Student Support, Parent and Family Engagement, First Generation Student Initiatives, Freshman Student Transitions, and Welcome Programming and Leadership Development Initiatives. She brings nearly a decade of experience in student activities along with prior experience in residence life. Dr. Brown earned her Bachelor's Degree in Psychology from Stillman College, her Master's in Educational Leadership from the University of South Alabama, and her Doctor of Education in Higher Education Administration from the University of Southern Mississippi. Professionally, Dr. Brown has been an active leader within NASPA, serving four years on the NASPA Alabama Board of Directors as Secretary Treasurer, and four years as professional Development Co Chair for the Women in Student affairs, or WISA Knowledge Community. She now serves as the WISA Co chair for the 2025 through 2027 term and previously held a leadership role within NACA South.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:39]: She currently resides in Decatur, Alabama with her husband Brandon and their son Brandon Jr. Our second guest is DA Lynn Doe. She her Dalen serves as the Associate Director for the Women in Science and Engineering Residence Program at the University of Michigan. Originally from Oklahoma, she earned her Bachelor's Degree in Political Science and Public Relations and Advertising from Northeastern State University and her Master's degree in College Stud from Bowling Green State University in Ohio. Having served on the WISA Casey Leadership Team for almost six years, her involvement with this community has been an instrumental part of her journey in student affairs. She's also been an active member of NASPA since early in her undergrad career, including being part of the NASPA Undergraduate Fellows Program or the NUPF Program and the NASPA Graduate Associate Program or the GAP Program, and serving in a variety of other NASPA volunteer roles. Dalen's experience as a first generation low income college student is what led her to student affairs work. She feels a deep sense of purpose in the field and her goal is to empower students, support them on their journeys toward receiving a higher education, and open doors for them to experience the impact of a college education in the same way that she did.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:43]: Dalen believes in values driven leadership and brings her personal values of integrity, intentionality, authenticity, appreciation and growth to her work with students. Dalen currently lives in Bowling Green, Ohio with her partner and their three pugs. Outside of work, she enjoys playing board games, traveling, spending time outside, and eating good food. Welcome to season 13 of SA Voices here with Jessica.

Dr. Jessica Nathan Brown [00:03:06]: Hi everyone.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:07]: And Dalen.

Dae'lyn Do [00:03:08]: Hello.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:09]: And you two are the current Co Chairs of the Women in Student Affairs Knowledge Community for naspa, which is one of the largest knowledge communities in all of naspa. It's an incredible job that you are both doing. I totally understand why this KC needs co chairs. It's WISA for short. It's got a huge internal board. It is super, super active with everything from events to publications and beyond. So looking forward to talking to you all about what the work is in wisa. But before we get there, we're going to start with your day jobs a little bit and we always like to get to know our guests by asking how did you get to your current seat? And we'll start with you, Jessica.

Dr. Jessica Nathan Brown [00:03:47]: So my current seat, I am currently the Director of Student Leadership and Engagement at Alabama A and M University. I have been here since 2023 and how I got here I started in student affairs, really undergraduate originally my major was psychology. Wanted to be a therapist and was super involved and so learned that this was a field. So I then went to do my Master's in higher education with a GA in residence life. And then I worked at UAB for 7 years in student activities, hence leading me to now this role in Huntsville.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:19]: Excellent. What's your dissertation title?

Dr. Jessica Nathan Brown [00:04:22]: Okay, try to say the actual it's not going to be exact because I don't have to say it often, but essentially I did did my research on burnout in student affairs at the entry level for entry level staff and what were the causes for staff turnover.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:37]: That is an incredible piece of research that we desperately need right now because we know that the field and the dynamics of how we enter the field are changing. So we're definitely going to come back to that. But let's get to know Dalen a little bit as well. Dalen, how did you get to your current seat?

Dae'lyn Do [00:04:50]: Yes, I love this question. I have a pretty similar story to I guess a lot of folks in higher ed and student affairs. I of course didn't know what this was before entering college, but I came into my undergrad at Northeastern State University in Tahlequah, Oklahoma as a first generation low income student who originally thought she was going to become a journalist for the National Geographic. I wanted to travel the world and take pictures of animals. But as I was kind of going through my college journey and realizing the impact that higher education was having on my life and why it was having that impact, it kept coming back to the people and the mentors who were supporting me. And so really I kind of learned early on in my undergrad career that I wanted to do this. And so I started getting involved with NASPA as early as like my sophomore year with the nuff program and then started looking into graduate programs and ended up moving across the country to Bowling Green, Ohio to do their college student personnel master's program for two years. And during that program I was an advisor, a scholarship advisor for the Thompson Scholarship programs, which was a perfect place for me because I was getting to work with other low income students, many of them also first gen.

Dae'lyn Do [00:06:06]: So a lot of students who had very similar stories to mine and that was, I was really doing the heart work there because it was very connected to my own journey and getting to support those students. So after I did my master's program, I actually stayed on full time in that role for almost three more years before finding my current role at the University of Michigan. I'm just down the road, so I wanted to really try to see. I went to a very small regional school for undergrad and then went to Bowling Green, which was bigger in D1, but I really wanted to kind of see what impact I could have at a university as large as the University of Michigan. And it's definitely been a totally different experience in many ways, but I think it's definitely been good professionally to grow and work with awesome students who are exploring STEM as their future. So it's been really cool to to work in a different space and see how different institutions work differently.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:01]: You both have incredible backgrounds in supporting students in student affairs and connected as women as well. How did you meet each other?

Dr. Jessica Nathan Brown [00:07:09]: Through wisa. Actually we met through wisa, being on the leadership team. I was the professional, one of the professional development co chairs for about four years and so I can't remember which year they went when you came in as our TOMS co chair for communications and that is how we met within the leadership team and working together as just part of the larger group internally on projects and things like that as well.

Dae'lyn Do [00:07:34]: Remember the first year I joined either, but it was nice to be joining through comms because I got to use some of that media studies background that I had developed in undergrad, but in a. In the setting of higher ed. So that was fun, but we got to connect through that. And then of course at the conferences and things, the connections, building connections that way too.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:53]: How did you decide that it was the moment to try to be become the chairs together?

Dae'lyn Do [00:07:57]: Well, I think for me, I always say this about wisa and one of the reasons that I love it is because of just the space of empowerment that it is for women and to like lean on each other and uplift each other. Because I never once said, like, I want to be on wisa, like the leadership team or I want to be the Casey co chair. It was other women who saw that in me. And so even as far back, the first time I got involved with WISA was actually with the regional WISA because the Region 4 East does, I think it's a biannual drive in conference. And so that was the year the COVID was happening. So everything had to switch to virtual. And I was just volunteering as like a little subcommittee on that, planning the drive in conference. And then someone was like, oh, you should join the regional board and then you should join the big board and then you should also apply to be the Casey co chair.

Dae'lyn Do [00:08:47]: And so I love that though, because it was never something that I was like, this is my goal or like, I want to do this. But it was other people saying, you would be great for this, like you should apply. Think about it. And so I really love that that has been such a uplifting space. Especially I, you know, I have been involved with WISA very early on in my career. And so as someone who has been a new professional in this space and also having that empowerment has meant a lot to me and I think definitely kind of helped catapult my professional growth in many ways.

Dr. Jessica Nathan Brown [00:09:18]: Yeah, I mean, for me, I just love being on the team. You know, like I said, I did professional development four years within the leadership team. And so I don't know what. Something just kind of struck me of, like, just throw your name in the HA and just see what happens. And then just kind of finding out that Daylyn was also interested in it. It was just kind of an easy connection for me to be able to work with her because I just had seen the amazing work that she was doing through her role in the communication side. And so I thought that we'd make a great team once we realized that we were both interested in it. So kind of worked out.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:48]: This season we're focusing on the value of student affairs as our theme. And WISA has always been a strong contributor to the profession and the professional development space. Especially. Can you talk a little bit about what your focus is right now as a K and how that's supporting this idea of the value of student affairs right now?

Dr. Jessica Nathan Brown [00:10:05]: Yeah, so Daylynn and I created and you know, we'll probably acknowledge our past co chairs because they kind of started this trend of these kind of acronyms and things. And so we were like, well, what, what's going to be our focus? And we came up with glow like wisa and GLOW is for growth, legacy, openness and well being. And so I think those were things that we felt like are areas not only just for women, but just all of student affairs are going through trying to grow as a professional, trying to also, you know, figure out how do you leave your legacy while also honoring those who come before you in the roles that you've been in. Being our authentic selves and sharing our stories and the things that impact us both personally and professionally. And then the big thing, well being. How do we balance student affairs, a busy, busy area or division on every campus, and so how do we balance that as staff when we're trying to also take care of our students?

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:58]: So like we said, is a wonderful way of framing that. And I appreciate hearing the focus on caring for yourself while making sure that we're embracing the profession and what we need to do right now. What are WISA members talking about in terms of this question of the value of student affairs on campus? Because we've come in a different direction given that Covid was not that far away, but it's also now a generation of college students away. And we went from being seen as kind of the saviors of the campus for a moment in time back to I think the question and the value of the profession has swung pendulum wise the other direction again a little bit. Not for everybody, but definitely it's there.

Dr. Jessica Nathan Brown [00:11:35]: You know, in terms of the value of student affairs right now, it's so much. And I think one of the things is being just looking at the whole student because we see them outside of the classroom. And I often hear people say they're in the classroom maybe 20% of the time, but other 80% they're either in organizations they're needing to go to like health and counseling, they're needing their residence, life, all of the things. And so we are Looking at the whole student and trying to look at how do we take a holistic approach to making sure that they stay focused and ultimately that they graduate. And so I think it's this concept of just that holistic student development. I think that's a part of the value of student affairs because we kind of touch them in every area. And depending on what campus you're on, you know, like my campus enrollment management also falls within student affairs. So then you add that piece to it and trying to think about enrollment and retention and those kind of things.

Dr. Jessica Nathan Brown [00:12:32]: I just think it's the value of it. It's just that we're touching the whole student in all aspects of their life while they're on campus.

Dae'lyn Do [00:12:40]: Yeah, when I think about the value of student affairs, truly, I think we as the folks who are doing the work understand the value. Like we know the impact that we're having. And oftentimes we get to see it pretty firsthand when we are connecting with students and seeing the impact that we're having. Not always, but a lot of times we do. And so I think it's really about how are we communicating that or showcasing to other people like that don't aren't in the work day in and day out and don't fully know the work that we do. I mean, of course our. I feel like it's an ongoing joke when we talk to our families about the work that we do. Mine still thinks I'm a professor, so I'm like, well, maybe someday, but not quite yet.

Dae'lyn Do [00:13:21]: And so I think being able to communicate and really put into words what the value is. And I also think helping students understand that value and name that themselves too, because I think they do know the value. But they don't know the difference of course between the student affairs side and the non student affairs side. Cause they're just here, they're just at college doing their thing and they just see it as one thing. And so I think helping students share their story and talk about the impact and the people that have impacted them is really important part of it. And I think for women too, a big thing that we're talking about in like the WISA space regularly is that well being piece and how are institutions valuing us in what they say versus like what they do. And so we of course are putting so much of ourselves into this work and both with our time, I mean many, many people working many late nights and weekends and being away from family and really putting time and effort into the work. But then also the like heart of the work and like the emotional toll that it takes on usually women specifically in the field, because we're the ones who have the, quote, unquote, caregiving energy.

Dae'lyn Do [00:14:35]: And so the space, the nurturer, yes, the nurturers, they come to us, they see that. And of course I want to do that work and have that impact, but it can't just be all the time. Like, I can't do that all the time and then also go home and be that person for my family as well. And so I think it's kind of two parts. One, telling our stories, two, and showing up in spaces where, especially at tables where they're talking about the impact of the future of higher education, generally speaking. But I also think financially, I think that's been kind of a big question mark for even at the University of Michigan, it's a large flagship institution. Like, financially, things have shifted a little bit recently. And so I think just thinking about the ways that we're supporting our staff and telling our stories, but also putting value into the work that we're doing each day.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:26]: Anything to add there, Jessica?

Dr. Jessica Nathan Brown [00:15:27]: I echo everything that Daylenna said, especially the part about telling our stories. I think that part is something that we can do better in student affairs. But I. It gets hard and challenging sometimes because we are so in the work and so it's hard to sometimes come up for air to like literally put it into words or even pictures, whatever that may look like in reports, and different things to share not only just within our divisions, but across our institutions, but because we're so in it, sometimes it's hard to remember, like, hey, we need to share what we're doing so that people really understand the impact that we're having.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:02]: I think this leads us nicely into our three theme based questions for the season. And I'm actually gonna go in in a different order because I think we're. We're going to start with number three. Our first. Well, third question of the theme season is what do you think that student affairs needs to do to be better understood and better seen in today's educational environment?

Dr. Jessica Nathan Brown [00:16:21]: Well, I think what we were just talking about with telling our stories, the data is there, we're doing it. Whether it's through qualitative or quantitative ways or methods, the data is there. It's just us putting it together, putting it out there and telling our stories. But I also think it is making sure that we advocate for, like us being educators. A lot of times when, you know, if you're in a room and people may Say all the educators, raise your hand. And sometimes we're kind of like, I mean, yes, that's us, but we're not the faculty. But we are still educating students in other ways. And so just reminding ourselves that we are educators as well, even though we're doing it from maybe the staff side of things versus faculty, but we are still educators, whether that be through leadership development or different things like that.

Dr. Jessica Nathan Brown [00:17:06]: And that also comes with collaboration. I think we can collaborate with other divisions. So, you know, that bridge between student affairs and academic affairs, if we're collaborating more versus sometimes being in silos, I think that that could help us be better as well.

Dae'lyn Do [00:17:21]: Yeah, I think again, it's hard because we know the work that we do and the impact that we're having. And sometimes it feels like others maybe aren't thinking about us or, I don't know, thinking about that in the day to day because again, they're not on the ground doing the work. And so I think, of course, showing up in those spaces and advocating for our ourselves. But I also think, how do we get other folks to look at us too? I guess because it's like, well, what can we do? Well, I think we're doing the work and like we're doing what we need to be doing to have the impact. It's just figuring out how we showcase that and really get people to listen and hear the impact on a greater scale. Because, yeah, I think, as we all know, higher education is kind of in a shift moment right now. And I don't want us to be the people who fall through the cracks as decisions have to be made. But I.

Dae'lyn Do [00:18:15]: We're already seeing that happen both financially across the country and different institutions. And I know many colleagues who've lost their jobs recently and it did matter that they told their story, but like, they did tell it and it still like, wasn't enough. And so I guess it's kind of hard to think about what can we do? We're already doing so much, so how can we get people to listen?

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:36]: I guess going to our first question for our season. When you think about the value of student affairs, what comes to mind first and why?

Dae'lyn Do [00:18:43]: For me, I mean, it's very personal. I think about how dramatically my life changed as a result of higher education. And of course it was because of what I was learning inside of the classroom, but it also was because of what I was learning outside of the classroom and the connections that I was making and the people who were empowering me and helping me process my own imposter. Syndrome and just the different things that you don't always talk about with a faculty member or in an academic setting. And yeah, I just think about that all the time. And like, of course that's why I do the work that I do. So it's easy for me to say, oh, I want to continue to give back in this way, but like, it's so true. I mean, when I have students who come to my office and want to talk through the challenges that they're having, that means so much to me.

Dae'lyn Do [00:19:31]: And being able to really help them just navigate some of those things that they aren't sure of or don't know who to ask, especially for. For my fellow first gen students out there, you don't always even know what you need. And so being someone who knows, hey, maybe this is maybe what's going on, like, have you thought about it this way? And then just seeing that moment click for them and being able to just reach their dreams, I mean, there's so many things that can impact your ability to succeed and the barriers that you have to overcome. And being someone who can connect students to resources to help them do that so that at the end of the day they can go, go be the person that they wanted to be and reach their goals and dreams. That is everything to me. Again, because it's both, because it's personal, because I've been there, I've done that, but also because I want my students do that too, and I care about them and want them to reach their goals and dreams as well.

Dr. Jessica Nathan Brown [00:20:20]: Love that. Similar for me, when I think about the value of student affairs, I think about impact. We make a huge impact on students, lives on the campus, on other areas across campus, especially, you know, just like I said earlier, depends on how your division may be structured, but we are touching students in a very holistic way in every aspect of their lives while they're here. And I just think about the impact that we're having. Like, even when it's hard and it's tough and we're tired and we just want to rest, what keeps me motivated and keeps me going is knowing the impact that we're making on students. And when I have students from years ago and I see them, whether that's in person or I'm just following them on social media and seeing all the great things that they're doing. And every now and then you have that one or two. That's just like, I remember when you taught me this or, or you said this to me and that helped me like Those.

Dr. Jessica Nathan Brown [00:21:11]: Those little moments are like, make it worth it, all of the late nights and different things like that. So I definitely think impact when I think about the value of student affairs.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:21]: Our third slash second question for this theme is, can you please share a specific story or moment when you saw the value of student affairs come to life? And in your references there, Jessica, I think you've got some of those stories right at the forefront.

Dr. Jessica Nathan Brown [00:21:34]: So I think, well, this is probably a long time ago, probably in my early few years, you being a new professional, but working with student organizations and advising them. And I had a student where I was really kind of challenging them. So I came in and I kind of inherited some students in an organization, so they were already selected. And I kind of came in and, you know, you kind of, as a new professional, like, I don't know, like, you know, I don't want to rock the boat too much, but I. I thought, you know, some things needed to be changed. And so I did have one student who came back after he had graduated, and he was just talking about things in his career, and I was asking how things were going, and he was like, yeah, and it was just a small thing. And he was just like you. I had to make sure that all my emails were professional and different things that I was sending out.

Dr. Jessica Nathan Brown [00:22:17]: And he said, and you made me do that. You made me do that when I was in the organization to make sure that my emails are written professionally or you would send it back to me and say, start over. And that helped me make sure that I'm being professional in my career right now. And so even just the small things, I'll never forget that moment. I was like, oh, you really were paying attention. I thought I was just flipping at your time. And so I've had a lot of moments like that. And I think of another, more recent one where I had a student who was just on the fence about running for our Student Government association president and really didn't think that she had what it took to do it, but she had served in another leadership role on campus, but I guess she didn't think that it was to the same level and kind of saying, like, you know, do you really think that I can do this? And I said, I think you can do it.

Dr. Jessica Nathan Brown [00:23:03]: And I've just seen what you've done, you know, in your current role. And she ran, she won. And phenomenal. Just like everybody, the university president, everybody was complimenting how professional she is all the time and all those things. She just did an amazing job. And I Always just made a point, whether she was giving a speech or something and say, like, you're doing a great job. So I actually saw her the other week. She came to campus.

Dr. Jessica Nathan Brown [00:23:29]: She's graduated now, but for an event that we had one of our welcome activities and walked up and hugged me and just said, everything is going really well. But I think think just that little bit of a nudge to like, help them see their potential really matters in the moment.

Dae'lyn Do [00:23:41]: I definitely echo the sentiment of saying things that you don't realize are actually having an impact or like, even thinking like, oh, this is a good moment. Oh, that was a good nugget of knowledge that I shared. No, I never think that. But then they come back to me months later and they're like, you said this one time. And I was like, oh, I'm so glad that you remember that I said that. I don't even remember saying that. So that definitely happens all the time. Which only makes me a little more.

Dae'lyn Do [00:24:06]: Okay, I need to really know what I'm talking about here. They're gonna take it all. So I can't think of a good example of that, but definitely echo that. But one thing I do think about often is so each year that I have been a full time professional in higher education, I have facilitated like a welcome week for our incoming students. And so one of the sessions that I was really passionate about including in the welcome week programming, the first time I did it was an imposter syndrome session. And so just naming what it is, helping students explore if they're potentially feeling it. And I remember the first year that I did it or that I would had proposed that it be a topic, one of my colleagues was like, well, I don't know, like, do you think that this is too heavy of a topic to talk about? Like their first week, you know, they're just getting to campus and like, they need to be getting excited and feeling, you know, you know, we don't want to like, make them sad by talking about imposter syndrome on day one. And I was like, I understand what you're saying, but I actually think the opposite.

Dae'lyn Do [00:25:06]: Because the truth is, is that many of these students are feeling that imposter syndrome. And so by not naming it early on, they're just going to be feeling it whether we talk about it or not, but then have those feelings in isolation and feel lonelier about it and not know how to talk about it. And so I really, like, pushed back and was like, no, I think we need to include it in welcome week. I Know it's heavier, but like it's important. And that year and every year since I think this is my fifth or sixth year presenting the session, every single year, I have students who just talk about how impactful that session session is and they write little notes to say like, thank you. This had such a huge impact on me. You really normalized this for me. Like, I have students come scheduling one on ones like the next week because they're like, just want to talk about it more and unpack it more on their own personal journey.

Dae'lyn Do [00:25:56]: And in that I'm very authentic about my own journey. And so I think that helps too to normalize it. But I just think about that every year because I remember that I felt hesitant because someone questioned it, but I said no, I think this is important. And really sticking through to what I thought impact that I knew that it would make and then knowing that that has been true is really special to see that and see the impact play out that way.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:20]: I read something not too long ago that was to the effect of imposter syndrome is not an individual's challenge to overcome. It's really the individual encountering a system that was never made with them in mind. Which I really appreciate that reframe.

Dae'lyn Do [00:26:34]: That is definitely something I talk about in that space because it's true. I mean especially. And I think again, circling back to the value of this work and why we do this work. And it's because, yeah, these systems were not made for me or many of the people who do continue to do this work. And so naming that so that it's not something that a student or even as student affairs professional, I can't say I don't still feel imposter syndrome sometimes. And so I think recognizing that it's not like I'm not the problem, like it was never about me being the issue. It's the system that was built and how do we help our students understand so that they don't feel like they have to change something about themselves.

Dr. Jessica Nathan Brown [00:27:16]: And I'd also say on even the staff side of things, like, I'm a huge proponent of professional development, staff development, which is why I'm so involved. I've been so involved in NASPA and other associations, but I think about this past summer served as a faculty for New Professionals Institute. And just being in that space with all those new professionals, it just reenergized me. And I heard a lot of them saying they're leaving. I re energized after participating in the institute. But I even think about we had One on one sessions. I mean, they could sign up to meet with, you know, whatever faculty they wanted to meet with. And I had a couple of participants say to me or even write me notes after the fact about, you know, just even thinking about the identity of it, of seeing me as a black woman in a director's seat.

Dr. Jessica Nathan Brown [00:28:03]: And that's where they want to be. And they wanted to make sure, like I wanted to make sure that I met with you. And there was one other black female, a faculty member, and that was important to them to see. And it helped them be energized and ready to go back and continue to do the work. Because burnout was a big topic for them. And so just seeing that impact as well from the staff side of things made me be like, okay, again, I'm tired. But people, the impact is there. And so to keep pushing and doing the work.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:32]: Let's go back to that dissertation topic. Jessica, as we're talking about burning, what can you tell us about new professionals and their choice to enter and then ultimately exit the field early in their careers?

Dr. Jessica Nathan Brown [00:28:43]: So you know that I. So I did a survey and everyone has similar stories to me and Daelyn as far as entering the field. What I found when it comes to the turnover was the top things were burnout. Compensation was the other big thing. I'm feeling like a lot of times entry level professionals are the boots on the ground, like doing the late nights and the different things like that and feeling as though they're not getting paid adequately for that. And we all know student affairs work is hard work. I know Daelyn mentioned that about the heart earlier. And so oftentimes we aren't doing it for the paycheck.

Dr. Jessica Nathan Brown [00:29:18]: We are doing it because we really love what we do. And so that was definitely the top two things was burnout due to the workload, often working more than 40 hours a week and compensation.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:31]: I have a former colleague who was incredible in their job and then ended up moving on to Amazon where they ended up, I believe, more than xing their salary for a similar type of level of position. So that's always interesting to see what is the impact of what we can do within the boundaries of our jobs versus what can we do if we move in industry? I can see pros and cons to, you know, working in an education setting versus a corporate setting setting. But as much as we love our jobs in student affairs, we still also need to be able to pay our bills.

Dr. Jessica Nathan Brown [00:30:04]: Right? And I'll also add that I did also find a Couple of people that indicated when they moved from student affairs to another area on campus, they were paid a little bit more and they could also go home at 5 with some of the feedback there as well.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:20]: Anything else that listeners should know, especially listeners that are in supervisory roles in terms of supporting new professionals or kind of early career professionals so that they can persist at in the profession if that's what they want to do.

Dr. Jessica Nathan Brown [00:30:32]: I would encourage supervisors to check in one because sometimes we think everything is okay because people are just moving and going, but sometimes if we just ask the question, how are you doing? We'll learn a lot that may not be said otherwise. So I think checking in, I think in spaces where we may not be able to compensate financially, find other ways to be creative for that compensation, whether that be professional development, paying for those things if we have the budget to do so, giving some time off here, take a day here and there, those types of things. Getting a gift card. Sometimes I try to take my staff to lunch every now and then. I know it's small but hey, let me take you to lunch or I have a little all about me thing that we have. And so I'm able to kind of pick out snacks and different things. They like to kind of say, hey, here's a little thank you for the work that you're doing. So I think being creative in ways to compensate and support our staff, but definitely to check in because sometimes they may not say it if we don't ask.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:28]: And Dalen, in the inverse, you are probably in your last year of being called early coach career. So you're in your fourth to fifth year at the moment as a full time professional. What behaviors have you seen from supervisors or colleagues that has helped you persist in the field, knowing that burnout has been high amongst early career professionals?

Dae'lyn Do [00:31:45]: Yeah, I think I've been lucky in that sense of just having really supportive supervisors who sought the idea of flex time or like if you're working late on a Tuesday, I don't want to see you on Wednesday morning. Being able to find balance, I guess where recognizing that sometimes it's not written into the contract, but still being able to find ways to make that space for yourself and to not just keep yourself running and especially if it doesn't make sense. Obviously I want to be here and be present to support the students, but do I have to be here at 8am every single morning to do that? No, probably not. And I even work in the same building where they're sleeping, but they're just upstairs. But they're still asleep. So if they don't need me there, they don't need me there. But because I have that flexibility, I can be there when they do need me. And like, it's in the times and spaces when they need me.

Dae'lyn Do [00:32:37]: So I've been lucky in that way. And just having supportive mentors who and again, check in on my own professional development, making sure I'm feeling like I'm continuing to challenge myself and grow and making spaces where I feel both celebrated, but also gaining opportunities to take on new things. Like, if there's something I'm like, oh, I don't really have experience in this and I want to gain it. Creating spaces for me in those settings I think is really important because they know that in order to make more money, we have to move up. And so recognizing that, okay, you might not be working under me forever, and that's okay. I want to support you on that journey too, because I think sometimes it's, you know, when you work with good people, of course you don't want them to leave. But I think I've had good supervisors who recognize that, like, well, if it's better for you, what's best for you is to leave, then that's okay. Let's help you get where you want to go.

Dae'lyn Do [00:33:30]: And so I think trying not to be hold on to those people if what's best for them is for them to grow and spread their wings somewhere else. So I feel like I have been supported in that way. And then another thing I just was thinking about was, and I don't know what question this answers or who is the person who should answer it, but I do think I've seen, as I've continued to see people like leaving our field, especially younger professionals, we are lowering the expectations for our jobs and like the job postings. And so I feel like I've seen a lot more people entering student affairs spaces without the student affairs background. And it's not that it's always a bad thing. I mean, of course outside perspective is often helpful, and it's not that those people aren't also great. But I do think that when we talk about the value of student affairs, we aren't seeing that in those spaces all of the time. Because yes, I got a degree in this work.

Dae'lyn Do [00:34:25]: I spent two years learning how to work with students, learning the theory behind it, learning all of the things, things. And then I'm not being valued for that education that I'm like bringing because you might hire someone over me who doesn't have that education or experience. And so I think just thinking about that, I guess I don't know. Again, I don't know what the solution is because I also understand that sometimes you don't even have options when you're hiring. But it's just thinking about that and what value. When we talk about the value, recognizing the value in our own education and what we went to school for and just like naming that in those spaces.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:01]: That'S a great can of worms question that I don't want us to necessarily dig all the way into, but I think it has been on the table for a little while, which is do you need a Master of Education degree focused in college student Services administration or higher Education administration in order to be successful in student affairs roles? I think personally the answer for some roles is yes, and for some roles maybe not. Maybe a completely different skill set as needed, such as communications or sociology or business backgrounds. So it's an interesting question that I think our field is going to have to face in the next couple of years for sure. I want to circle back to WISA as our time wraps up together. If I'm a listener and a NASA member and WISA is intriguing to me, but maybe I've never entered the space before, how can I enter it and what can I expect once I'm in it?

Dae'lyn Do [00:35:47]: Yes, well if you're not already subscribed to our monthly newsletter, you should definitely do that. That is where we promo all of our upcoming events and ways to get engaged. We also have social media page, both LinkedIn. We actually have a private LinkedIn group which is where you can join join and I think there's like over 20,000 people in the group. So it's a really popping group. But you can join it and then you can share. So that one's really nice to be able to be like I have a job posting and like people can just share their research and all the things that there are going on. And then we have a public group that is where we can share specific WISA content so events and different things.

Dae'lyn Do [00:36:27]: And so both of Those exist on LinkedIn. We also have an Instagram and a Facebook so that's really the best way to figure out what's going on with with us. The newsletter and social media are certainly the go tos, but when you do enter the space we have lots of programming happening all the time. We have a couple of different signature initiatives happening this fall. We also have a blog so you can write for our WISA blog and share any kind of research that you're working on, but also just anything you feel like you want to write about that applies to women in our field and sharing that in our space. We are open for that. I think those are some key things that you could be a part of, but definitely all of the things you can find out about us on social media or newsletter.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:10]: Jessica Anything to add?

Dr. Jessica Nathan Brown [00:37:11]: For now on Instagram it's NASPA Women with an X. So if you're looking us up and I'll also say we also have opportunities as well. So while our leadership team is full, we have opportunities to volunteer as committee members under some of our co chairs. So if you're interested, reach out to either one of us as well so we can get you plugged in to be a part of some of those smaller subcommittee.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:33]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASA world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:39]: Thanks Jill. So excited to be back in the NASPA world and there's a ton of things happening in NASPA. I'm excited today to be able to announce the 2026 Pillars of the Profession. The Pillars of the Profession every year are selected from the NASPA foundation, and it is one the of of the Foundation's highest honors. The award comes from you, our members and supporters as a way to recognize your fellow colleagues who represent outstanding contributions to the field and our organization. This year, the NASPA foundation has selected two 2026 John L. Blackburn Distinguished Pillar of the Profession Award winners, Henry G. And Betty Simmons.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:38:26]: This award is the NASPA Foundation's highest honor, celebrating previous Pillar of the Profession winners who have continued to contribute to the field. The foundation has also identified the following individuals as Pillars of the Profession for this year Tierney Bates, Vice Chancellor for Student affairs at the University of South Carolina Upstate Roland Bullard Jr. Vice president for Student Success at Stillman College Charlotte Davidson, Director of the Native American House, University of Illinois at urbana champaign Rich DiCapua, Senior Associate Dean of Students and Deputy Chief Student Life Officer at Tufts University Cassie Gerhardt, Senior Associate Vice President for Student affairs at University of North Dakota Gianluca Giovannucci, President of iuka, the European University College Association Dennis Gregory, Associate professor of Higher Education at Old Dominion University University Blanche Hughes, Vice President of Student Affairs, Colorado State University, Fort Collins Paul McLaughlin II, Vice President and Dean of the College at Colgate University Brian Mitra, Vice President of Student affairs and Enrollment Management at CUNY Queensborough Community College Sophia Pertuss, founder and Principal Consultant at Mainstream Insight LLC Scott Pesca, Esther, Assistant Provost for Academic and Student Success at Waubonsie Community College Calvin Phillips, Vice President for Student affairs at the University of Minnesota, Twin Cities Mark Shook, Associate Vice President and Dean of Students and Deputy Title IX Coordinator at the University of South Carolina David Surratt, Vice President for Student affairs and Dean of Students at the University of Oklahoma Michelle Topp, Vice Provost for Student affairs at Portland State University University Erin Kahunwaika Wright, Interim Associate Vice Provost for Student Success and Dean of Students at the University of Hawaii at Manoa and Toya Younger, Senior Vice President for Student affairs at Iowa State University this new class of pillars will be honored at the 2026 NASPA Annual Conference. If you would like to celebrate one or multiple of these pillars of the profession with a donation to the NASPA foundation foundation in honor of them, to the NASPA foundation website and donate online, your donations will go towards celebrating not only these individuals, but supporting the efforts of the foundation to support members, research and more, and support the association more broadly. The early registration for the NASPA Strategies Conference is coming up on October 28, 2020. The NASPA strategies conference is happening January 15th to 17th, 2026 in Chicago, Illinois. The strategies conferences provide student affairs practitioners with the knowledge and skills to effectively address collegiate alcohol and drug misuse prevention, mental health, sexual violence prevention and response, peer education and well being through a variety of comprehensive and integrative approaches. These conferences allow for individuals to gather together and to unite champions of health and well being in one space to learn, network and advance comprehensive, integrative approaches to campus challenges.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:41:46]: If these conferences sound like ones that you would like to attend, they are a powerful they are powerful conferences and definitely ones that you will learn from. I highly encourage you to check them out today by going to the NASPA website. To get there, just go to NASPA and go under events and online learning to learn more. Another professional development opportunity is the Next up Elevation for Millennial Women Leaders presented by the Women's Leadership Institute. This is happening December 10th through December 12th in Decatur, Georgia. You know Middle managers are often at the heart of change tasked with translating senior executive strategies into actionable plans. If you are a middle manager who identifies as a Millennial or as Millennial adjacent, this is a amazing opportunity to be able to meet other individuals like yourself that are changing campuses one day at a time. This conference has carefully curated a lineup of panels, speakers and breakout sessions to explore topics such as Real Talk for Power, Middle Career Acceleration, Strategy Strategies, Intentional Peer Based Networking, Holistic Leadership Development, Bridging Generations and Building legacies.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:43:06]: As mentioned, this is in Decatur, Georgia at Agnes Scott College in December of 2026. You can find out more on the ACUI website, go to acui.org and click on Events to find out more. Every week we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways. Because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with the knowledge community, giving back within one of the centers, or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for your yourself, where do you fit, where do you want to give back? Each week we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that, or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to, to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:44:37]: Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in naspa.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:44:49]: Chris, we always appreciate you keeping us informed on what's going on in and around naspa. And we have now reached our light where I've got seven questions for you to answer in about 90 seconds. We've got Dalen going and then Jessica going. So we're gonna dive in right with question one, if you're ready.

Dae'lyn Do [00:45:06]: We're ready.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:45:07]: All right, question one. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be?

Dae'lyn Do [00:45:12]: I'm gonna be bad at this. I would probably say something by chance. The rapper.

Dr. Jessica Nathan Brown [00:45:16]: Love that. I would probably say anything. Beyonce. But for today, I'm gonna say run the world.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:45:22]: Number two, when you were five years old, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Dae'lyn Do [00:45:25]: Journalist.

Dr. Jessica Nathan Brown [00:45:26]: I wanted to be a teacher.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:45:28]: Number three, who's your most influential professional mentor?

Dae'lyn Do [00:45:30]: Dr. Kelly Jo Larson.

Dr. Jessica Nathan Brown [00:45:32]: Dr. Sharon Whitaker Davis.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:45:34]: Number four, your essential student affairs read.

Dae'lyn Do [00:45:37]: I have recently been reading a book about first generation professionals in student affairs in higher education, so I would recommend that one.

Dr. Jessica Nathan Brown [00:45:45]: Well, I haven't read it yet. But I just bought it at the NASA conference this year. About mid level managers. I can't remember the exact book, but it's about mid level managers.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:45:54]: Number five the best TV show you've been binging lately.

Dae'lyn Do [00:45:57]: Well, it's fall so I'm back on Gilmore Girl.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:46:00]: Binging same.

Dr. Jessica Nathan Brown [00:46:01]: My husband and I binge watched recently this show called the Hunting Party. It's a new show but it was very, very enticing. So we will be watching it when the next season comes.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:46:11]: Number six, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year.

Dae'lyn Do [00:46:15]: Probably one of my Taylor Swift podcasts that talk about the Easter eggs and things, especially with the upcoming album.

Dr. Jessica Nathan Brown [00:46:23]: So I'm not a big podcast person, but I'll say they do have a podcast, but I see the clips on Instagram so it's Devale and Kade Ellis just talking about relationship type thing.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:46:34]: And finally, number seven any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional?

Dae'lyn Do [00:46:38]: I just give a shout out to everybody who's helped me along my journey and thank you for supporting me. All my supervisors that I've had along the journey and my students too. I think we didn't talk about that as much today, but I definitely think that the students have impacted me and my own growth as much as I've probably impacted them, hopefully.

Dr. Jessica Nathan Brown [00:46:58]: I'd like to shout out my WISA family, best co chair in the world, Daelyn, our former co chairs in the past few years. I'd also like to shout out my husband who's also in student affairs. So that's always a fun story. We both are in student affairs. Shout out all of my like Damon said, my past supervisors, my current supervisor, my Alabama A&M family, just everyone in my family who's been a part of my journey.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:47:20]: It's been such a joy to learn more about WiSA's work today and get to know your perspective perspectives on the value of student affairs. I'm sure there are other NASPA listeners who would like to connect with you both if they would like to find you. How can they do that?

Dr. Jessica Nathan Brown [00:47:33]: Yeah, so my LinkedIn is just Jessica Nathan Brown. Definitely connect with me and would love to chat and get to know you.

Dae'lyn Do [00:47:41]: I agree. My LinkedIn is also just Dailyn Doe so you should be able to find me and connect and also reaching out via the link WISA platforms as well. We monitor those so if that's easier.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:47:54]: Thank you both so much for sharing your voices with us today.

Dr. Jessica Nathan Brown [00:47:57]: Thank you.

Dae'lyn Do [00:47:57]: Thank you for having us.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:48:03]: This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field brought to you by naspa. This show is made possible because of you, the listeners. We continue to be so grateful that you choose to spend your time with us. If you'd like to reach the show, you can email [email protected] or find me on LinkedIn by searching for Dr. Jill L. Creighton. We welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions always. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and leave us a five star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening now.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:48:33]: It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps us to become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode this episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill Creighton. That's me, produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.