🎙️ Remarkable World Commentary Episode #65: Interview with Jilla Bond, Life Coach | Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA https://donnajodhan.com/rwc-12-04-2025/

In this richly reflective episode of Remarkable World Commentary, Donna J. Jodhan welcomes her longtime friend, mentor, and travel companion, Jilla Bond, for a conversation about a life lived as a "mosaic" of careers and caring. Jilla describes leaving school with little confidence and no clear path, then gradually building a portfolio of roles across politics, business, and design, from opening Margaret Thatcher's mail to directing a major international design conference in Montreal that transformed her understanding of design as something that can radically improve people's lives, like a child's wheelchair built to feel like a sports car. She explains how these experiences, along with later work in high-end Italian lighting and growing a company with very low staff turnover, shaped her people-first philosophy and her approach as a life coach: listening deeply, asking careful questions, and helping others find their own answers rather than imposing solutions.

Together, Donna and Jilla also unpack the heart of their friendship and shared travels, from law school graduation in London where Jilla guided Donna across the stage and Princess Anne personally congratulated her, to an emotional pilgrimage to the Normandy beaches and Canadian cemetery, to trips across Europe and Lourdes. Jilla talks about learning to "paint color into Donna's canvas" by narrating faces, spaces, menus, landscapes, and small details that many sighted people take for granted, as well as the humility and practical problem-solving involved in being a sighted guide: planning for assistance, asking strangers for help when needed, keeping social interactions to small groups, and building in quiet breaks so both travelers can recharge. She also shares her idea of "speaking dementia", finding simple, respectful, and often musical ways to connect with people whose reality is shifting, and makes a broader plea to treat both young people and elders with genuine respect, doing with rather than to. The episode closes with Jilla's gentle challenge to listeners: if you're traveling with a blind or sight-impaired friend, don't be afraid, imagine what you would want in their place, stay curious, communicate openly, and you'll likely find the journey richer for both of you.

TRANSCRIPT

Podcast Commentator: Greetings.

Podcast Commentator: Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners. Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids, especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator. She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills, and expertise in access technology and information as someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles, she just wants to make things better than possible.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary. I'm Donna Jane Johnson, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch and stubborn optimism. I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant, author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind. You may know me from a few headline moments. In November of 2010, I won the Landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to sighted ones. And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than 20 or 2 dozen disability groups to turn equal access into federal law. And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers. When I'm not in a courtroom or a committee room or a pottery studio, you will find me coaching kids with vision loss, producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in plain language. Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as one shared workbench for policy meets, lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas. Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let me shine a spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is as every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build. Jilla Bond, my good friend, my mentor, my advisor. Welcome to my Remarkable World Commentary.

Jilla Bond: Thank you. I'm very pleased to be able to be here with you.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Great. So let's get started. You've described your working life as a mosaic of different careers and roles. But if a listener were to ask you who is Isabella Bond professionally and personally. How would you introduce yourself and that mosaic journey in your own words?

Jilla Bond: Well, my life started very well, but my education was not such a big success. So in the era that I grew up in, a long time ago education for girls was pretty limited. Unless you were very, very bright. And you could go on to get a degree. And I did not fall into that category. So I left school young with very little confidence. And that really influenced very strongly my early life. My parents were older and my they were not in a position to pay any further fees for me. And so I went to a what would be now known as a business administration course. And I did that. And that led me to go to work in different offices. And my career, the reason I call it a mosaic is because the jobs that I have done have been very varied, because basically I went to work. I obviously applied for jobs and was interviewed and so on. But I didn't necessarily go into one sector and try to stay there. So if something sounded interesting and sounded different, then I would apply. So it meant that I worked in the periphery of politics. I opened all Margaret Thatcher's mail when she was first elected as leader of the opposition. And. That ranged from working in advertising companies and a variety of different roles. So it led to the role that took me into working with the Transatlantic Alliance and the British North American Committee. And I learned there how to organize conferences and events, and that became very valuable in a later, at a later date. But I also met people from academia, from senior business people from the trades unions movements. And I've always been fascinated by people. So that really was a big springboard for me. That happened coincidentally through me just taking random jobs so that I could pay my way.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. One of the big creative landmarks in your story is your work on that international design conference in Montreal. Can you take us inside that project? What the design was, what you actually did to bring it to life and what those years taught you about the power of design?

Jilla Bond: I will view design was something that I tumbled into by coincidence. I knew some people who were putting on an exhibition of Canadian art and design, and to get government funding they needed to do, they needed to have a conference, and they were looking for someone who had had experience in organizing conferences at a reasonably high level. And as I just explained, that was one of the jobs that I'd had previously. So I took on the role as conference director, but I knew nothing about the world of design at that time, and someone introduced me to a very prominent designer in Montreal and I said, well, if you were doing this, who would you invite? And they gave me a list of people I think they intended me to choose from that list. But in reality, I contacted all of them and nobody said no. So when they arrived at the conference, they were all wondering because they all thought they were coming as the keynote speaker and why all the competition was there too. But what was fascinating was there were people from design, the world of design, of wallpapers, of interiors, of. Go karts for children, bicycles, Children. And there was one particular person who fascinated me because he was designing a wheelchair for children and he had gone into.

Jilla Bond: An home where he could meet the children who needed wheelchairs. And he sat down with them and said, what would you like? And they all said they would like something that was like a Porsche or a fancy car. So when he came to design his chair, he made it into something much superior to any other wheelchairs that had ever been made, and much more exciting, so that the children could race around a playground within the wheelchair so they could play with their friends. And what I learned from being in the world of design was not only at a personal level, a very pleasant discovery that I was quite capable of organizing such a keynote event, but that design is fundamental to making people's lives better. I think many people view design as something visual, something that may enhance surroundings. You look at, as I said, wallpapers or beautiful statues and things. And I would suspect I'm not alone in thinking, having thought that design was primarily to do with just making beautiful objects. But this really taught me that excellent design, and particularly engineering design, learned to use new materials in new ways. And I started to find that absolutely fascinating.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Alongside all of this, you trained and practiced as a life coach? How did your experiences in design, policy, health and caring feed into the way you coach people? And what kinds of crosswords or transitions do people tend to bring to you?

Jilla Bond: Well, by the time I trained as a life coach many years had gone by of experience in different fields, doing different things, including via design, but many other things as well. And what I learned from all of it and my my approach to life coaching, which I use very regularly but not on a formal basis anymore, is very much to listen very carefully to the people around me or to the person whom I'm trying to of to whom I'm trying to offer assistance and understand what their real desires are and where they want to go with their life, and then to with a little bit of careful questioning, try to guide them in a way and build up their confidence so that they themselves come to the right conclusions. Because I don't think there's anything to be gained by imposing ideas onto people. You need to encourage them to think through what their real aims are and maybe get into a discussion. What is it that you really want in this particular change of field, or whatever it may be that you're doing? And this lesson about the fundamentals of design and finding the right materials to make the best solutions for design, and being innovative and thinking of new ideas certainly fed into my work as a life coach and certainly into my working career.

Jilla Bond: Because the life coaching really came out of building companies at a later date. I joined the Via Design Italian lighting company, and when I first joined them, they were just turning over, I don't know, £300,000. And then we built it into a company at the very sharp end of design that was turning over 4.5 million. So but to do that, one of the things I'm most proud of is we had very little turnover of staff. And I think the reason we had very little turnover of staff is because we were very careful to be very respectful and to treat people and to listen to them if they had complaints or had things that they wanted changed, and to really talk through whether we could make it happen and if we couldn't make it happen, explain to them very clearly why, in a very rational and reasonable way. And I think that is the way to help people move forward with their lives, is to help them see it more clearly and help them find the purpose that is going to take them forward.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's very true. I mean, you know, it's very Yeah. Very true.

Jilla Bond: You need to always put people at the center.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes.

Jilla Bond: You must work with what people are telling you and then try to work out from that. If you make that the fulcrum of the discussion and then work out from that and explore different possibilities. And some they may reject and some they may like. Right. Fundamentally let them make their own decisions, because if you're imposing things, it will never work.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's true. That's true. You've often said that your deepest Passions include young adults and older people, fairness and freedom, and of course, people and good organization. When you look across your life, how have those passions guided your choices even when you were changing sectors or taking risks?

Jilla Bond: I think whenever I've moved into a company, I think it's fair to say I'm I'm not a shrinking violet. Should we put it that way? So when when I've moved into a company, I've always needed to find some people with whom I could collaborate strongly. And you find people who are really well organized, but you also understand that it comes back to. The question of really being in tune with the people around you. And the reason I am fascinated by young people is because I had a very difficult, well, not very difficult in comparison with some, but in my world, not an easy adolescence and early adulthood. And I think it was because I lived in an era where people were trying to impose upon me ways of doing things without looking at me as a person and seeing my personality and realizing that trying to put me in boxes was never going to work. I was going to wrestle my way out. So I like to get into discussions with young people I like because of the lack of confidence that I had. I like to do anything I can to build their confidence, to help them, to feel that they can definitely make a good life, even if they've had a difficult beginning.

Jilla Bond: And I think at the other end of the spectrum, I think older people can very quickly be discarded. I think they can. People are often, sadly not slow to put people into homes. And I had a slightly feisty discussion with a person at a function one day and they were saying, oh well, her parents were going to do this and were going to do that. And I just very quietly said, is that what they want? Because I think people are who've lived long lives and often had very interesting lives. They may not have had remarkable lives in the bigger sense of the world, but they will all have, through the course of their lives, done interesting things, and they shouldn't be dismissed. They should very definitely be treated with the respect that everyone is due, not just older people or younger people, but everybody. And so I feel very strongly that older people should be listened to and communicated with in a way that works for them with respect and understanding, and they usually have very interesting stories to tell.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I can certainly confirm this with my own mom. I mean, like, you know, she has so many stories to tell. And then she often says to her caregivers, you know, if you get to my age, you'll be darn lucky. So let me pass on my knowledge to you. My advice to you like, don't think that you know it all. And I don't know anything because I'm old.

Jilla Bond: You know you have it in a nutshell.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. So.

Jilla Bond: And people, I'm sure the caregivers and I know some of them have been absolutely wonderful, and some of them could probably learn from the ones that are absolutely wonderful. But I.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Agree.

Jilla Bond: They have a tendency to do too, rather than do with. And I guess in life, If you do with people and not do to them, you will get much, much better results and you will have a much richer feedback and interaction.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I agree, I do agree. After many years of Christmas cards and long distance connection, we have had that big reconnection in 2009. In 2019, when you drove me from London up to Windermere and on to Liverpool. From your side of things, what stands out about that trip, both as a driver and as a sighted guide for a blind friend?

Jilla Bond: I think well, one of the key lessons for me was the first night that we stayed in the little hotel where you were going to the chess tournament, And I came to meet you to go down to breakfast. And I walked into your room. And of course, obviously there was no light on. And I went to turn the light on. And it was a very strong lesson for me in the world that you live in. And it stayed with me throughout all our many trips that we've done since that, and that something I take totally for granted is something you don't, but you take your life for granted without that. And I think it was a great eye opener. And I don't mean that as a pun, but it was for me. It was an eye opener to to realize loud and clear some of the key differences. And I think I've said to you several times, every time you've come on a trip, something new has struck me of The challenges that you face on a daily basis that I don't because I can see and that's ranging from how you pack a bag, how you always turn out for the day, and color coordinated clothes. I and they're clean and they don't have any marks on them.

Jilla Bond: And I'm always very impressed with the smaller details of things that we would take totally for granted that obviously for you, you've had to find a way to negotiate those situations. And in our most recent trip, I remember feeling embarrassed because I'd forgotten to put the card in the key slot to put the lights on, and when I needed to use the bathroom, I had to go and put the card in the slot because I couldn't see in the bathroom without the light on. And I think those kinds of experiences bring home the world that you're living in. I also learnt to look very carefully at the things I find interesting and that I liked, and to start to talk to you about them. And when we went to meet your family in Liverpool, I took a propitious moment to tell you how tall they were and which ones laughed the most and what they looked like, and to try to add some color to the picture that you were experiencing. So I think it was learning to try to live my life in, not live my life, trying to support our trip, to make it interesting for you to try to add some of the color of the things I could see that you couldn't.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I don't think I'll ever forget when we went to Liverpool and the family came and they all stood in a circle around me and I thought, oh dear God, what do these people look like? And you were quick to the, you know, quick on the ball with it. And he told me, you described it to me, described them to me, and it helped. It really did help, you know.

Jilla Bond: Well, I think yes. You can't. I mean, you get a huge amount from hearing someone's voice. Yeah. But and you are very quick and, you know, people's voices and you're very good at remembering. I think your memory is absolutely phenomenal. But I think it's only fair to be able to say this one's tall, that one's thin, and this one's not with not being rude in any way about them, but just to give a paint a paint a bit more color into the picture so that you can experience more the way we would.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Not long after my law school graduation in London, you drove me to Normandy so that I could honor the soldiers who fought and died there. What was that journey like for you, navigating Berlin's cemeteries, beaches and history with me alongside you, using a white cane?

Jilla Bond: Well, again, I learned that long drives, which I love and because I watch the world go by, are excellent moments for you to take a snooze, because obviously you don't have the interest value of seeing the countryside going by that I do. So the first thing I think I really understood was whilst this was a wonderful journey and I really enjoyed it too, because ironically, it was something I hadn't done and it's a very moving and emotional thing to do. And it was just after the big anniversary and it was very it was full of feeling and emotion and very a very colorful and deep experience. I also I mean, you were very, very moved by it, and that affected me as well. And we managed to go to the different beaches, and we had that incredible walk through the Canadian cemetery, which was very, very impactful, very emotional too. And yes. And then we I think it was Juno Beach that we went to and the parking lot was full and there was a sort of cafe at the end, and it was lunchtime, and we felt we needed a little something. And I saw the hotel across the road and I said, you know, I think we can go and park in the hotel over there.

Jilla Bond: So we went over to the hotel and I remember saying to you, do you like oysters? Oh, yes. Said to you, I haven't had an oyster for ages. And it also. So there were it brought home to me to be sure to look at every detail of where we are and what we're doing, and to try to bring it to life for you. So I think I became more observant and trying to pick out the really salient points of the places we were visiting and the things we were doing. And because I'm your eyes and I need to think in terms of telling you what's on the menu, telling you exactly the choices are not picking out the ones I think you might like, but giving you a general and genuine overview of what what is available for a sighted person so that you are getting as close to a sighted experience as you can. So whether I'm describing the sea or the sand, or how the guys must have been going up this immense length of beach under fire, or whether we're sitting down to have a meal because it's lunchtime and just being sure that you know what the options are and not just picking out 1 or 2 things that I think you might like.

Jilla Bond: And as we get to know each other better I can as we have become to know each other better then I can say well oh they've got these or they've got that. And then knowing that those are the kinds of things that you would like. But to begin with it was much more exploratory and to push boundaries because if you if I don't tell you that there are oysters and mussels on the menu. You won't know and you'll probably choose a sandwich or something. So I think I think it's thinking that extra mile to try to bring. The cited options, opening them up for you as well. I think the fact that we were driving through the villages with all the flags hanging from the lampposts, and the fact that the flags on the lampposts had pictures of the people who'd been killed during the D-Day landings. And those details are not letting them go by without bringing them to your attention. Even though it's emotional, it adds to the color of what we're doing. And I see it as trying to paint color into your Canvas.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You certainly did. And I will never forget that trip. You know, when I set out that time with you to visit Normandy. I'm not sure what I was going to what I expected, but I certainly got a hell of a lot more. And you certainly helped by, you know, describing stuff by telling me stuff, by inserting, you know, what you saw, what you heard, what you felt. And and it really, really has left a lifelong mark on, on my life. And I want to thank you for that.

Jilla Bond: Oh, believe you me, it did it for me, too, because we covered quite a lot of ground.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And yeah.

Jilla Bond: I mean, the other aspect of it too is there's never a lost good. And in describing it to you, it made me pay attention more so that I benefited more from what we were doing and what we were seeing and the places we were going to. And I remember taking a they had a big mural on the wall of one of the beaches we went to, and I took a picture of you underneath it, and so that you could show it to your friends. And it made me look at that mural much more carefully. So it's it's a double edged sword. It means that I take in much more detail because I'm not really a detail person, and it makes me take in more detail than I would normally. Which is. Which is lovely. It's very beneficial.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think sitting here listening to you now brings back a lot of those memories, especially going through this cemetery. And and you know, you describing the the Canadian headstones to me. You know, it really brings back a lot. Yeah. Yeah.

Jilla Bond: And remembering to to to taste the Produce of the areas that we go to.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, yes. Yes, indeed.

Jilla Bond: You know, little glass of cider or a nice glass of wine to go with the oysters and the rules. And, you know, it's because I'm lucky enough to live very close to these areas, I can I may not have been to the beaches specifically, but I can certainly tell you what the local produce are. And this is a local cheese, and this is these are local biscuits and those kinds of things which I think add flavour and add to the experience of any trip.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It does, it does. You sometimes talk about learning to speak dementia. For our listeners, could you unpack that phrase for me? What does speaking dementia look like and feel like in a real conversation with someone whose memory and Reality may be very different from yours.

Jilla Bond: It's back to what we were saying earlier in the conversation. It's working. I mean, with everybody with dementia, everybody's dementia is individual. And dementia is, as most people would understand, is an umbrella term for many different conditions. And the learning to speak dementia really is learning to be able to communicate with people who are living with dementia to whatever degree they are able to do. And it's not straightforward. You need to find a common denominator in a way and to understand that person. Maybe if they have a carer or somebody who's around them more regularly, or when I was doing the caring. You learn to understand what their minds can still. Process and some of it is describing things. Some of it's keeping it very simple and not getting fussed or cross or upset. Just because you can't communicate or you can't understand. Just keep starting again, but with very simple sentences. Very not in a not in a baby talk. I have a horror of people who talk to older people with that.

Jilla Bond: Are you all right, Mary?

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Jilla Bond: These are human beings who've led rich lives, and it's so disrespectful. And so I think learning to speak dementia is finding a common denominator through which you can communicate. And one of the best ways to do that with people with dementia is songs, singing and music. And if particularly if you can find music that has meant something to them during their lives. So for my own mother, for example, musicals, and suddenly, out of nowhere, she would be able to sing songs from musicals.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, wow.

Jilla Bond: For somebody whose ability to communicate was very limited by the end, she was well over 100. So it's not surprising, but. Right to be able to have that common denominator of both knowing the same song from a musical meant we could communicate together at that particular moment by singing that song together, and that creates a warmth for them and it creates a warmth for you, particularly if it's someone you're close to, like a mother or a father or a relation or a friend. If it's someone you're working with again, you're building a rapport, you're building trust, you're building. I mean, there was a lady that I worked with for quite a long period of time. I was with her for nearly two years, just covering two days a week. So the other, the the regular carer, could have a time out. And she never knew my name, but she beamed like a beacon when I came through the door, because she knew my voice and I would come in with a cheery hello and how are you today? And she would just greet me with this massive smile, and it set us off on a very good, a very good note for the two days we were going to spend together. So it's really a question of getting to know the person you're trying to communicate with. Speaking dementia, in my mind, and I think to be honest, that's probably the basis of most of my communications now, is trying to understand and trying to listen to people, but really hearing them and hearing what they're saying. And if you hear some distress, either you move it on. If it's not something you can help with, or you let people talk it through. So I think for me, it's learning to communicate with people with dementia, but not trying to not just by speaking louder. You know, some people, when they feel they're not being understood, just speak louder. Yes, you really need to go back and start again and try to find a different common denominator. And learning. Great patience.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Yeah. A lot of patience is needed, but I think too many of us often think that when we speak louder, the person will hear us. And sometimes my mom would say, don't yell at me. And I. I catch myself and I say, I'm sorry. You know, I didn't mean that. But, you know, that's a natural reaction, right?

Jilla Bond: And I think also it's very easy to get frustrated.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.

Jilla Bond: Because you're trying to communicate something that isn't perhaps getting the response that you had hoped for and you get frustrated. We all do it. You start again with a bit louder. You do it with children too, you know, voice going up. They don't stop when you first ask them. You know, you find yourself very quickly the voice going up a little bit. And I think it's a great life lesson to just stand back, take a deep breath and start again on a different tack.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.

Jilla Bond: And try a different way of getting the message across that you wish to communicate.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: We have been traveling together since 2022, and the one thing that is a highlight for me was the day you walked across the stage with me when I graduated from law school. Tell us briefly, how did you feel walking across that stage with me?

Jilla Bond: Well, very proud of you for a start. Thank you. I think it's absolutely remarkable the the studies that you've achieved, the exams that you've passed. I'm always lost in admiration for anyone who passes an exam because I've not. It's not a talent I've mastered. I was very touched by Princess Anne, who registered that you were unsighted and actually took the trouble to speak to you and say, congratulations, Donna. And I thought that that was very I mean, obviously she was well briefed, but she'd remembered and I thought that was very impressive. I was delighted for you and trying to be as inconspicuous as I could, because it wasn't my day. It was your day. But you just needed my guiding hand. That was all. But it was a very proud moment, I think. I think certainly something I've never done in my own right. And so it gave me a chance to experience something I wouldn't have known about otherwise. Well.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think I was absolutely blown away by this voicing. Congratulations, Don. And then it dawned on me, that must be Princess Anne. And I thought, oh, dear, you know. Yeah.

Jilla Bond: She's a remarkable woman, though. She definitely is.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, yeah.

Jilla Bond: But I thought that was that was very much an example of how polished she is And I was briefed and how she remembers. That was good. Now I'm very proud and I'm glad we made it into a celebration. I'm glad we did all the things that that everyone else was going to do. Had a little glass of champagne and so we should. Yeah, that was a great day. A very brilliant day, because it's not your first degree either. I mean, you know, you're an old hand at that now.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, I think it's time for me to stop, though, because it's, it's it's getting a bit, you know, tiresome in ways I need to enjoy life in many other ways. But I think we we have a we have a big trip planned next year. And as the clock winds down, I wanted to ask you what tips, suggestions, hints or thoughts would you like to share with our listeners with regard to if someone was thinking of going on a trip with a blind slash sight impaired person. What are some of the thoughts you would like to share with them?

Jilla Bond: Don't be. Don't be afraid of doing it. I think some people would. Well, obviously it depends very much who you're going with. Yeah, I think obviously we can never put ourselves into your shoes. But I do think that by giving it some serious thought, if I. If the roles were reversed, what would I want to happen? What would I want to experience? If it was me that was unsighted and someone was kind enough to go with me? I would want to laugh. I would want it to be fun. I would want to know all about what's on the menus, what drinks we can have Of when we're having a nice little cocktail in the evening. What different cocktails that can be, what different foods there are. I would want to know as we board a train, you know, to to go and find the people who will give us assistance and make sure they do. And genuinely, I think that for me, it's always do as you would be done by so try. Although it's so difficult for a sighted person to put themselves in the shoes of somebody who has lived without sight. Luckily for me, you had that moment when you had functional vision. So you. I can describe things in colours and you know what I'm talking about. But we've built a relationship now whereby if there's something you're not sure about or if there's something you're not keen on, you say, and we work it out. But that would be my main tip, I think what we have found is some countries are much better than others at being considerate. I think the white cane is very helpful. It may be a little annoying to have to take it all the time, but I do think it gives other people a chance to know that they can be helpful by giving us a wider berth, by not jostling, by helping with not being afraid to ask for help. I remember that famous day when we were in Budapest trying to get on a train.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh yes.

Jilla Bond: And we had two reasonably large bags, and we were at the bottom of the stairs and there was no lift, no porter, nobody around, and the people behind the counters were really rude. I went to try to get some help, and the only option was to look for a nice, strong young men and say, excuse me please, will you be kind enough to carry our bags up? And we have never, ever had someone say to us.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, no, no, no.

Jilla Bond: We had 1 or 2 young people who very kindly put our cases on the train and up on the racks and where they were supposed to be, and said when they when we got to the destination, they were going to the same destination, they would come back. They forgot it didn't matter. We found two other young men who were very kind and took the cases down for us. But I think, don't be afraid to ask, right. I think you can ask the authorities. When we book the trains, we always tell them that we would like assistance. Please make sure, see what is available. And if there isn't available, then you find other kind travelers. And by and large, people are very kind. Yes. I don't think we've ever had anyone really refuse Refuses?

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, never.

Jilla Bond: I mean, we were unfailingly polite to them, and we thanked them graciously. But I think be brave and just ask total strangers to please be helpful. And in my experience, they always are.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Absolutely. I mean, don't be afraid to ask. And, you know, we've traveled by train. We've traveled by air. We've traveled by on the riverboat cruises. The next year, we're planning a cruise to some very interesting places. And I'm looking forward to this because it's going to be a longer cruise, much more for you to describe for me and much more fun.

Jilla Bond: I think also, I know that the interview is with me, but I would like to suggest, can you say what it is that you find helpful from traveling with me? What is it that I've got right, and what are the things I could do better? Because I think really that's more important than my observations is how has it worked for you?

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It has worked fantastically well in that you are very observant. Most times I've not had to ask you for something. You said to me, would you like this? Would you like that? And you've been very observant of knowing what I like, what I don't like, what I'm not comfortable with. And I think for someone who is sight impaired, they need to reach out. It it goes both ways. It's not just about the sighted person. Assuming I have to tell you what I think, I would not, I think, but what I would like, what I wouldn't like, and honestly, I can't think of anything that you could do better. I mean, we've grown over the last four years. I, I'm just amazed amazing how well we've worked together like both when we are in London. London at your house and when we've been traveling. And I'll never forget our trip to Lourdes. When we were in the church and you said to me, I think we should go and get a blessing because everybody's at the top of the the I. And I said, sure, sure. Let's go. Got to the top of the island. The lady shooed us out of the church. She said, it's a wedding. And we laughed at it.

Jilla Bond: Yeah. Once we got out of the church, we laughed because there was absolutely nothing to suggest that it was a wedding. There wasn't a bride in a bridal ground or ground gown, and there wasn't a one couple that I could see that were different from anybody else. Yeah. But you know, it was not they were not particularly welcoming, shall we say. No, no, that's for sure. But one thing that you've made me think of that I have taken on board is that a lot of travel involves being with big groups, and that is something that you're not particularly comfortable with.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No I'm not. Yeah.

Jilla Bond: So we we do try to well we don't try. We make sure that we interact with small groups of people. Maybe a couple, maybe the same couple could be two people traveling together or a couple. But to keep the group small so that you can get to know the voices and get to know the people, and not just to throw you into a crowded room and wander through the crowded room thinking you can pick up on conversations. Because certainly from a sighted viewpoint, when you're doing that, you pick out people that you think you might have something in common with, and you try to talk to them. But this is this is something that I've definitely noted It and made sure that for the last 2 or 3 trips, we don't try to interact with more than a couple or at most four people. But that's even that's a stretch. And the other thing I think we do, which I think is really important, is we take a break from each other in the afternoon.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's right, that's right.

Jilla Bond: So it gives a little bit of time to breathe, and you can do the things that you want to do and that you customarily do at that time of day. And I go off and either have a walk or I go and take a book or lie on a sun deck, depending on where we are and what we're doing. But I think to take a break in the afternoon for two hours is because otherwise it's too intense for everybody.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But you know something? I didn't have to tell you this. You just picked up on it right away. You, you know, like, you knew right away that we needed that break and the two hour, you know, I, I think it was a very, very important. And I think we've worked well together and as friends we've grown together. And I'm looking forward to next year.

Jilla Bond: Well me too. I think we're going to some really interesting places, and I think I'm glad that you feel that it's it's something that's evolved. And after every trip, we we Well, I reflect on how it's gone and where we've been. And there have been I mean, there was one trip in particular which became complicated, but that wasn't our fault. It just was circumstantial. And it was just we ended up out of sync, not with each other, but in the sense of the travelling plans. And it just made it all a bit stressful and complicated. But other than that, I can't think of a real hitch. But I do think that it's really helpful to take a little bit of time apart.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And you don't panic. I've never seen you panic. Never. Yeah.

Jilla Bond: It takes too much energy to panic. I'm too busy trying to work out how I'm going to get out of something. Yeah, I'm fortunate, inasmuch as I've. Because I have had a very chequered life and I've travelled a lot. I guess you do get into a situation whereby you take what's coming in front of you and work your way through it. It's it's the only way to resolve things.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I've learned a lot as well, you know?

Jilla Bond: Yeah. No.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Go ahead.

Jilla Bond: No.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Go ahead. Sorry.

Jilla Bond: I was just going to say I had a little bit of practice because my mother ultimately lost her sight, too. So.

Jilla Bond: She she. Not to the full extent, but she had macular degeneration. So thinking about it, I guided her quite a bit and took her to the Great Wall of China. And so, yes, over the years, I think I've built a lexicon of hopefully trying to help make travels fun for people. I think that's the bottom line.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You've made it lots of fun for me over the last four years. I mean, we've traveled many places. You know, we've gone to Lourdes, we've gone across Europe now. Next year we'll be doing something very interesting and exciting. And I want to thank you for this interview. I think listeners would be really intrigued and they will learn a lot from your own experience. So thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Jilla Bond: It's been a total pleasure. And if I had to put it into a nutshell, I guess it's try to put yourself in the shoes of the person you're trying to help. And I think that applies in all walks of life and in all manner of trying to add a little bit of positivity in the world. But I've really enjoyed talking to you. I enjoyed traveling with you, and thank you very much. As you know, I was very doubtful that this would have enough interest for your listeners, but I very much hope it does. And look forward to seeing you in the summer.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. You say hi to Doug and Ro and the little girls and Kahlua.

Jilla Bond: They're coming to stay tomorrow night, so it'll be fun.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Merry Christmas to you, and we'll talk very soon.

Jilla Bond: Merry Christmas, Donna. Thank you.

Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Take care. Thank you. Bye. Bye bye.

Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna at gmail.com. Until next time.