Why do norms of non-proliferation and disarmament matter? And why do countries pursue nuclear weapons? Listen in, as LCNP Executive Director and host for NukeVerse, Deeps discusses this, and more with our first guest Professor Scott Sagan. Professor Sagan is the Co-Director of the Center for International Security and Cooperation at Stanford University, where he is also a senior fellow. In this episode we discuss his foundational paper on Three Models in Search of a Bomb, how he became interested in challenging realist perceptions on nuclear policy, the role of norms, and we also touch upon some currents events such as Ukraine and Russia, Iran and the Middle East, as well as his most recent work on public opinion and discourse.