How do you speak up with confidence without sounding aggressive? Leadership coach and TEDx speaker Ivna Curi shares how to find the balance between boldness and respect so your message lands with influence.

In this episode, you will learn:
✔️ The important difference between aggression and assertiveness (hint: you want to be assertive!)
✔️ How the DESO framework helps you handle hard conversations
✔️ When apologetic language undermines credibility and when it builds trust
✔️ Ivna’s personal story of moving from people-pleaser to confident communicator

Whether you lead teams, pitch clients, or want to be taken seriously in meetings, these strategies will help you speak boldly and be heard.

CONNECT WITH ANDREA

🌐 Website: https://talkabouttalk.com/
🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/
✉️ Andrea’s Email Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/
🟣 Talk About Talk on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503
🟢 Talk About Talk on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369
📺 Talk About Talk on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube

CONNECT WITH IVNA CURI

🌐 Website: https://AssertiveWay.com
💼 LinkedIn: https://www.Linkedin.com/in/IvnaCuri/
🎙️ Speak Your Mind Unapologetically Podcast: https://AssertiveWay.com/Podcast

MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

📖 Building A StoryBrand by Donald Miller: https://amzn.to/3IMAduF
📖 Atomic Habits by James Clear: https://amzn.to/48GtWuW
📖 Principles by Ray Dalio: https://amzn.to/4nrBnL3
📖 Acting With Power by Deborah Gruenfeld: https://amzn.to/3WhuoIF

🎧MORE HERE: Ivna interviews Andrea for her Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/how-to-identify-and-communicate-your-personal-brand/id1623647915?i=1000719522727

TRANSCRIPTION

Ivna Curi: Speak to people in a way that makes them wanna hear your power in your delivery and that conviction, and then listen to people in a way that makes them want to speak to you.

Andrea Wojnicki: Are you an assertive communicator on a continuum from anxious to passive, to assertive, to aggressive? Where do you stand? Do you know what the important difference is between assertiveness and aggressiveness?

Yes. We want to be assertive. No, we do not wanna be aggressive. But what exactly is the difference? In this episode of Talk About Talk, you are about to find out. Welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast. I’m your executive communication coach, Dr. Andrea Wojnicki. Please just call me Andrea. You can learn more about me on the TalkAboutTalk.com website.

And please, if you’re not already, please subscribe or follow the Talk About Talk podcast on whatever platform you’re on. Spotify, Apple, YouTube, wherever you’re listening, hit subscribe, or follow. Let’s do this. Let’s talk about talk. If you’re tuning into this episode, then I’m gonna guess that you could use some help with what we call self-promotion, a little help with feeling more bold and sounding more assertive and confident.

If you happen to be one of the lucky few for whom this does not resonate, maybe you’re already bold and assertive; well then, I encourage you to listen anyway. But from a different perspective. As a leader, chances are a significant proportion of the folks who you work with and who report to you have serious issues speaking up and being assertive as a leader; part of your job is to make sure that everyone’s voice is heard. We call this encouraging courage. I love that we encourage courage.

Whether you’re an individual seeking more courage yourself, or maybe you are a leader, making sure everyone gets heard, you’re gonna wanna hear some of the insight from our guest expert today, Ivna Curi.

About Ivna Curi

I met Ivna on LinkedIn. She had me at bold, unapologetic, and assertive.

I knew the Talk About Talk listeners would wanna hear her message. Ivna leads practical workshops that empower leaders to navigate hard conversations with confidence, ultimately improving performance across teams. She’s also the host of the Speak Your Mind Unapologetically podcast, a TEDx speaker, a Forbes contributor, and the author of Unapologetic Voice.

Here we go. Thank you for being here today, Ivna, to talk with us about using assertive language.

IC: Thank you for having me, Andrea.

The Power of Bold & Unapologetic Communication

AW: Okay, so out of the gates, I’d love to start with some definitions. I noticed with your podcast and your TED Talk, and other things that you do on social media that you use the terms bold and unapologetic a lot, so I thought we would start there. What exactly do you mean when you say bold and unapologetic?

IC: And that’s a great question because a lot of people use those terms, and everybody seems to have a different definition of what bold and unapologetic means. And I actually use unapologetic a lot because it, people are very attracted to that.

Uh, they love it. However, it is not what people think. Unapologetic and being bold is not venting off. Our frustration is not purely self-expression. It’s not just being authentic. It’s not being honest and blunt. What it is, is being able to express ourselves respectfully, so fully express ourselves, our thoughts, our ideas, our concerns, our boundaries, our perspectives, everything that we are, you know, those, those important conversations, our feedback in a respectful way with the purpose of influence.

So it’s not simply, let me just speak and get it out of my system. Right. And make myself heard, there’s a purpose there. There’s something that we want out of that conversation. There’s an element of influence on the other end. So it’s, it’s not about just saying whatever, or controlling other people.

AW: So I heard two, I heard many things I love there, but I heard you say respectfully. Yes. And I think that’s really important too, ’cause I agree. It’s dangerous. I talk about building your personal brand unapologetically, but that doesn’t mean you’re just not being respectful and you’re not filtering.

Right. So I think that’s important. And then you talked about with purpose or for with influence. So, I’m gonna start to think about that term, unapologetic, using those ideas as well. What about bold? How does bold fit in there?

IC: Bold means, and here’s something that happens a lot, a lot. I see a lot of people speak tentatively with hesitation so that they can be polite and kind and nice, and that’s the opposite of bold.

Bold means speaking with conviction. Bold means speaking in a way that’s definitive, being decisive, not holding back, because we wanna be polite and make people comfortable. There are other tools to do that. There are other tools to be warm and build connection, but when it’s time to express our thoughts, our ideas, our concerns, our perspectives, we gotta be bold. We cannot try to be tentatively. Polite.

AW: So I heard you talking about this. I told you that I watched your TED talk, which I’m gonna link to in the show notes here and recommend men that everybody else watch it. But as I heard you speaking, even before you mentioned it, I thought of psychological safety.

IC: I’ve had 13 managers in my career before I took on a completely more entrepreneurial role, and the very best one of them for me that made the biggest impact for me in my career and my ability to be productive as well. Yes, he provided psychological safety, but he pushed me towards risk every single day in the world, the world beyond him, while I was interfacing with external vendors and supply chain client, angry customers.

Other leaders in the organization, they were not happy, and they were not giving me safety. Now, my manager gave me safety when he would push me towards the world, the dangerous world out there, make me speak up, basically coach me through it, but not protect me. And then he would be a safe space for me to come back and say, I, this did not work.

I struggled with this. How should I do better here? Amazing. And that’s how I was able to evolve and be still able to speak up and express myself in different situations and be more independent, be more autonomous, and grow and develop as a leader. You know how they say with children, sometimes overprotective helicopter parenting can be damaging to kids, and helicopter leadership can also be damaging if it’s excessive.

And sometimes, as a leader, and I’ve been there, you, we feel like we’re the mom, we’re the dad. We gotta protect from everything, all bad things. We gotta protect our, our little children, our team from any struggles, any challenges, any difficulties, any hard conversations.

Psychological Safety and the Benefits of Assertive Leadership

AW: So this is a nice segue, I think, to the benefits. So I’m hearing that for parents, it’s a good thing to encourage your children to take risks. For managers, it’s a good thing to encourage psychological safety and encourage your people to be bold and unapologetic. So, in the context of at work, what are the benefits of being bold and unapologetic?

IC: So being bold and unapologetic. As assertive communication. So respectful communication. Yeah, with influence is very powerful because especially in hard conversations, you know how transformational hard conversations can be. Mm-hmm. To relationships, to business, to productivity, that actually enhances the quality of collaboration. Because often when people are collaborating, there’s some people who tend who are naturally more passive, more quiet, and they tend to step back and avoid conflict, which means they’re always compromising.

They’re compromising on their ideas, they’re compromising on their perspectives. And so that collaboration doesn’t work because the more dominant types are always, you know, getting their way, getting their point across. And we’re not leveraging the diversity of thought of that team, of that organization, to come up with the best ideas to problem solve, to innovate, because it’s not truly inclusive, because the communication in that meeting is not truly inclusive.

But if there is an environment that has psychological safety to some extent and where people, there’s an environment that, a structured environment for participation, but also people are able to communicate in a mutually respectful way with influence. Then that problem-solving ability goes up, organization’s resilience goes up, conflict reduces significantly.

People spend a whole lot of time, like about a month, a year, dealing with unproductive conflict. Festering conflict. So there and miscommunication gets reduced tremendously. And miscommunication is, is is a daily reality for most leaders. True.

AW: So I’m hearing a lot of the same benefits that accrue for psychological safety. Right? I feel like if you’ve created an environment where people can be bold and unapologetic, almost by definition, you have an environment of psychological safety, and so that’s why you wanna encourage those things. You mentioned that some people on your team are gonna be quieter and more passive, is what you said, right?

So, to those people, what advice do you give them to encourage them to be more assertive?

IC: So, a couple of things. One of them, one of the things that people who are confrontation, avoidance, and just, focus a lot more on preserving their relationship than winning or getting their point across, is they also feel like they need to feel confident before they speak up.

AW: Mm-hmm.

IC: They wanna be fearless and that’s just not the order of things. That’s not gonna magically happen out of the blue without speaking up or engaging in those conversations. They’re not going to start to speak up more because they’re they just suddenly became confident out of nowhere, right? That confidence comes with experience in doing something and skill.

So I always encourage courage, and courage is something that we can also develop. To take that step beyond the comfort into a little bit of that risk, but in a measured, experimental way. Because people are often in their heads, and they project a fear and a consequence that’s much greater than reality.

And when even if they speak up and things go in the wrong direction, and here’s what happens typically. People who tend to be more passive, right? So we have assertive, aggressive, passive, and passive-aggressive are the most common. And obviously it’s situational as well, but people have a tendency to be more passive and compromise and agreeable people pleasers, they’re scared, and they tend to, when they try to be more assertive, they tend to go too far into aggression because they don’t really know what they’re doing yet.

And so when they go too far in aggression, people know them. As someone who’s, you know, always quiet and let, and letting others speak and agreeable, that causes some tension because people don’t understand, they haven’t seen this, this individual before speaking up like that. And they’re, they tend to be a little bit aggressive because they don’t know the techniques.

So being able to get the manager support and saying, Hey, or put in the development plan, personal development plan, Hey, this is something that, a skill that I wanna develop. And getting the manager to support you along the journey, knowing that you will make mistakes, and it’s just part of the process. So you can get that feedback in terms of response from people.

Think about what you’ve done well, what you could do better, and then try again, and the make that official so that people around you can support you in that mission is also critical. And then the last thing I’m gonna say is the skill piece. And when we don’t know how to speak up, obviously, the consequences of retaliation, backlash being seen as net, is difficult, as aggression go up.

However, when we upskill ourselves, when we know what we’re doing. Yeah. And how to have these conversations and the frameworks to do so, especially the harder conversations, it de-risks that conversation and it increases our influence to achieve the outcomes, to make our message land in the other end.

And when we increase the reward because people are here us to understand us, and they’re acting or responding the way we want them to respond because our influence went up and the risk goes down, then we naturally feel more inclined and more courageous and more confident to do that thing even more, which is speaking up.

AW: So it can be like a sort of a vicious downward cycle. It’s like a positive upward cycle when you start to do it. So as you were describing that, even I was imagining a continuum where at one end you have people that are paralyzingly anxious, right? Yes. And then at the other end, you have aggression, and in the middle you may have an equilibrium of the ideal level of assertiveness. Does that sound kind of right?

IC: Yes. And the thing that most people confuse with, like they think that it’s a bit of a personality trait, but it’s something that can be very much learned and taught. I’m naturally very passive. I avoid confrontation. I am a people pleaser.

When you talk about brand, the brand I had for my, the first 10 years in my career was nice. Yeah. That was the word that people used to describe me, and I had to put in an intentional effort to develop and understand how to communicate with respect, with, yes, with kindness and empathy, but also with a bit boldness. Right. And influence to get that message across.

AW: Yeah. So you said this, there’s this common pattern of folks that are a little bit more passive. When they try to become assertive, they may jump past assertiveness to become aggressive. What exactly is the difference between assertiveness and aggressiveness?

Assertive vs. Aggressive: Finding the Balance

IC: And that’s crucial for people to understand. Yeah. Because they get this wrong all the time. Yeah. So philosophically, it’s around control and aggressive. When we’re communicating aggressively, we’re trying to control others.

And their behavior when we are assertive. We control ourselves. We’re controlling our communication so that we can influence others.

AW: Back to the influence. Okay.

IC: Back to the influence. And so that manifests in many different ways because sometimes a lot of people, a couple things that don’t have influence. Right. That tend to be a more aggressive, very typical, in assertive training, you always find this, which is the I language versus the U language.

People use this all the time. Yeah. In aggressive communication, the very subtle things that we say, Hey, you hurt my feelings. There’s like a client that came to me and said, I was super assertive Ivna, you would be so proud of me. I had, I arranged this meeting with this person who had changed my slides last minute, all this, and I told them, you hurt my feelings.

I had to break it to them. Like, listen, you were courageous. That’s beautiful. I’m so glad you took initiative and you had the conversation. But the reality is that, you know, you hurt my feelings, is can be seen as very aggressive as opposed to when this happened. You know, I felt this or this action that you did impacted me in this way.

AW: This way, right

IC: This way. Or another one that I see all the time is people say, you know, you made me feel disrespected or you disrespected me. Right? It sounds okay, but it’s actually, it can come across as very aggressive and judgmental, and it lacks evidence, and it’s not constructive. So there’s many different little subtle things that we say in our language that can come across as aggressive if we’re not careful.

And it’s definitely not influential, right? Right. Making someone putting, making someone defensive is not going to increase our influence. When people are asking others to change behavior, and this, most people don’t, they’ll complain, but they won’t. They won’t talk about the thing that they want different, that, that to change, right?

The requests, they’ll never bring that up. And when they do. It’s something like, you know, stop being disrespectful or stop interrupting me, or, I don’t like this. Versus a future-oriented, constructive invitation. Mm-hmm. To change something. Yeah. Little subtle things that make a huge difference, and I could spend a whole hour just on. These, these differences and how they manifest in our communication.

AW: So one, one clear one that I heard there was saying I instead of you. Yeah. And then there’s, there’s also the one that’s a little bit closer to that, which is when you do, this is how I feel. Which might be okay. Right. But what are, are there any other little tactical tweaks that you can share in terms of our language that will keep us in the assertiveness realm and out of the aggression realm?

IC: So the deso or the desk script are very famous for assertive communication, having hard conversations. The one that I teach is a version. That goes beyond that. It has a few more elements so that it can be a, it, it can vary and be adjusted based on, uh, the power dynamics, based on personality, based on how strong a relationship you have with that person, and all those other elements based on.

You know, something that I see a lot like women struggle sometimes. A younger woman, maybe with an older man in, in those different elements. But the basic assertiveness script that can really help for these conversations is called DESO or DESC Script.

AW: Yep.

IC: So D is for describe the situation. You know, I noticed, in these meetings, I’m getting interrupted a lot, or I’ve been interrupted three times in the last five team meetings. The more specific we can get, the better, versus saying things like, you are always late, or you always interrupt me, or you never do this. The second step is explaining your sentiment or your feelings, or in a business context, it’s much better to talk about expressing the impact of someone’s actions on us or the team, or the client or the customer. It’s a lot more professional than just talking about our feelings. Yeah.

AW: In the context of being productive and meeting certain objectives.

IC: So that’s where the, when this happened, is the context, you know, I felt this, or the impact of this action was, their team lost, didn’t feel psychologically safe to express their thoughts, and we didn’t get enough discussion around this.

Then the S stands for specifying our request. I like to call that an invitation because a request, sometimes people can feel like it’s a act as if it’s a demand, and we don’t want that. We want it to really feel like an invitation.

So the invitation is forward-looking, and a great way to start this is, hey, going forward, because then people are more amenable to that versus the past is more blame-oriented. Hey, going forward, I would appreciate if you, you know, you let Sally or others in the team speak before sharing your ideas.

Since you’re superior to them and they might feel threatened to speak otherwise. And the last one is O for outcomes or C for consequences, which is giving people a reason to accept the invitation, right? That way, we can make sure that we get the most collaboration out of the team. We get the most ideas before we make a decision.

Right? Then getting at some level of confirmation. Does that work with you? Are you good with that? Agree. And then closing with the relationship. Once again, Hey, thank you so much for making the time to talk about this. I really appreciate your collaboration. And then you’re done.

AW: Yep. And you sound confident and clear. You are not being aggressive. Right. And you’re trying to meet everybody’s business objectives and everyone’s personal objectives. Yeah.

IC: Yeah. And you’re in control. You have the influence to being respectful. You have the framework, so you know the key points you wanna make. That allows you to not to make sure that they don’t derail you. Yeah. If things don’t get overly emotional.

AW: Yeah.

IC: So it’s very easy, very thoughtful,

AW: And you know that I love a framework Ivna, right? Like I know you, you’re not talking about It’s not, yeah. It’s not a script, it’s a framework, and you can fill in the blanks and you’ll sound great. And it’s easy to remember.

I love it. Okay, so on this continuum from aggressiveness to assertiveness, and here we have this kind of passive apologetic maybe. Is it ever, okay, so I’m sure you get this question from your clients, like sometimes, isn’t it okay to use apologetic language or weak language?

IC: And I get in my workshops, I get a lot of pushback on this because the group usually is primarily passive.

And, you know, and I’m encouraging, and some of them say, Hey, you know, here in the south, that’s, that’s what we do. You know, we, we, we ask for permission for everything, right? We apologize for everything. And I get it. There are cultural nuances at the same time, in a workplace context, it’s very different. If you’re in the bakery and you know, there’s someone in front of you and you cut, I mean, there’s a, it’s just a different situation.

It’s a different situation. If you’re talking to a superior and, you know, pitching an idea. Versus talking to a direct report and trying to make them feel safe and showing vulnerability. So it’s all about being intentional with that. Generally. We also wanna role model for our teams that they can be bold.

That’s okay to be bold, and it’s important to role model that as well.

AW: Yeah. They’re watching you. Right? They’re watching.

IC: They’re watching you both on the vulnerability, but also on being bold. Yeah. With your ideas. So being able to express ourselves, our ideas, our thoughts, our concerns, set the boundaries, whatever that is, self-expression that is respectful is, no apologies for that.

AW: Right?

IC: No apologies whatsoever. Yeah. Now, where does it make sense? Okay, well, we make it a mistake. Even then I would, I would be cautious about. When to issue an apology, when to talk about an apology, and when to position that in a different way for which is, for example, acknowledging the impact of our actions on others and that at least for me, it would feel so much better if someone is expressing, not just saying sorry, because it feels empty.

AW: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

IC: And lacks meaning if there’s not a demonstration of understanding of empathy towards the impact that person’s mistake had on me, on my team.

AW: Right.

IC: And an intent to change things going forward. Right. That is way more powerful than just saying, sorry. Yeah.

AW: I know there’s this formula that I’ve seen a million times on social media about when you’ve done something wrong and you know you need to apologize. You go up to the person, you say, I apologize for, you label what it is that you did. Then you describe, as you said, what the negative impact was that you understand, and then you say, here’s what I’m gonna do, going forward.

So you’re saying if I had to skip step one. Not, not hear the, I’m sorry. And I just had step two and three. I would be fine with that. In fact, I’d be better off. I get it. Yeah.

IC: Better off. Yeah. I don’t care about the, sorry, apologize part. Yeah. Just show me that you’re committed to make things different and that you understand my perspective.

AW: Yeah. So I thought you were gonna go in a different direction with this, and so I wanna just share this conversation that I had with a senior client of mine. She was running for CEO of her organization, and we were talking about her communication plan, ’cause she needed to make sure she had all the stakeholders who would, who were, had input onto the decision of who the CEO was, including a board of directors and some of the senior, existing senior executives in the organization.

And she said they are very diverse, and some of them are very old school. Very hierarchically thinking, and I am the only woman contender for the CEO position, so I need to be very strategic about how I’m communicating with these folks. Never mind the gender dynamic itself. Like, never mind, like, how do I bring up the fact that I’m the only woma,n or do I bring that up?

Right? There’s the whole point of how I talk. And so we, we actually created a strategy where we wouldn’t call it apologetic language, but it was more like she would use language where she’s deferring power to the other person because that’s what they expected. And again, this is, you used the word intentionality.

She was very intentional about it, and she definitely comes across as a bold woman and a confident woman. But she said sometimes that can backfire. So I was just, that’s where I thought you were headed. So let’s go to the other end of the spectrum. I wanna ask you, have you ever had clients or even people in workshops who are like arrogant and like beyond aggressive. They’re just like, well, they’re probably aggressive and arrogant. Have you ever come across that?

IC: They do happen, but they don’t happen often. I come across a lot more people that have the poor me victim mentality, and that’s probably harder to deal with. The arrogant types.

There are people who resist feedback, and change initially, but they tend to open up and under and understand a different perspective. So I haven’t, uh, I haven’t seen truly like arrogant people. Now, arrogant people like most other of these, you know, the, these, this dysfunctional waste of communicating.

They come from insecurity, from wanting to protect themselves, from wanting to command. I’ve had clients say, I wanna keep my edge so people respect me. Yeah. Wow. So Wow.

AW: They don’t, I haven’t heard that one. I haven’t heard that one, but I can imagine you haven’t heard I, yeah,

IC: Yeah. Like how do I keep my edge? And so what they don’t understand is that there’s, you know, I have actually whole talk about this, which is speak boldly, connect openly. Mm-hmm. I speak to people in a way that makes them wanna hear your power, your delivery and that conviction. And then listen to people in a way, in a way that makes them want to speak to you.

And when you combine those and you’re able to know when to use each one and how to combine them together in important conversations, then you do not lose your edge.

AW: Yeah.

IC: But you do not, you’re also not controlling people. Right. People are there with you because they want to be with you.

AW: Yeah. I love that. I love that. So in the vocabulary that I use, I would say communicating with conviction and credibility. Also, having a growth mindset and genuinely being interested in what other people are saying because you have a true belief that your collaboration is gonna be more effective than you just telling them what it’s not.

You’re not delivering a monologue, right? You’re sharing your thoughts, and then you’re listening to their thoughts, so you can come up with the best solution or decision or whatever it is. I love that. Okay. Is there anything else before I get to the three rapid-fire questions, Ivna, that you wanna share? I guess the ultimate question is for the folks that are erring on the side of being apologetic or not assertive enough, so that they can land, they can maybe move along this continuum a little bit closer to the ideal level of bold and assertive communication.

IC: I am extremely passive by nature. I’m socially anxious people pleaser. That is my, that’s who I am. My tendency, however, I felt like that was my strategic strength in the past. We talk about identities. We talked about brand. I actually thought that was part of my brand. I’m just like an easygoing collaborator.

That’s who I am. Once I found the other side of, once I found the real me, nobody is authentically passive people pleaser. That’s not you. Everyone is assertive. I just haven’t hadn’t found it yet. Once I found assertive evening, oh my gosh. I’m never turning back, ever, because this evening feels empowered, feels free, feels happy. I attract the right people to my world. I can actually command people’s attention when before I couldn’t, and my self-confidence and my self-worth, we talked about self-worth all went up. Yeah, this is the real me.

AW: Oh, I love it. So people pleasers are not pleasing themselves. It’s

IC: I apologize for not them, they’re not pleasing themselves. Yeah. That’s not who you are. Yeah. Gotta break free and be willing to experiment. I’m all, I’m very big in social experiments, in a controlled way with the support. Try new things, figure out, learn some of these frameworks, learn how to do things so that you make fewer mistakes, how people respond, adjust, try again and people who are people pleasers tend to catastrophize the consequences of speaking up a lot more than reality.

So when you start to get that real feedback loop from the environment you’re in and people starting to respond positively to your speaking up moments, that’s going to give you tremendous confidence, courage to start finding that new, more powerful version of yourself.

Wrap-Up & Rapid-Fire Questions

AW: Amazing. You will be quoted on that. Okay. You ready for the three rapid-fire questions? I am. Question number one: Are you an introvert or an extrovert, and how does that affect your communication?

IC: So I am introverted, introverted, socially anxious, and a people pleaser.

So that was me. However, none of that is static. So, when we start to expose ourselves to the thing that is uncomfortable or different, we enjoy it. When I go to conferences, I enjoy meeting new people and talking to them, but do I like to stay at home and do in solo walks? Absolutely.

So it’s something that we can evolve into. Now, what I do say is a lot of people just don’t understand the differences between all of those things. Yeah. It’s important to understand a little bit of that, a little bit of psychology, so that we can not think that that is who we are and we can’t change that, or that it’s gonna somehow hurt us.

AW: Right. A lot of people have a negative association with introversion, and I say, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It is not a judgment. It is a way of being, and introverts typically are the best listeners. And it doesn’t mean that you are also socially anxious. You can, you know, go, like you said, go to the networking event and get out there and on stage like you’ve done.

It’s just gonna take more energy, and you can manage your energy, right? Like this is a different construct than I think a lot. A lot of people think that introversion means you’re paralyzingly shy and you can’t be around people. No, no, no, no, no.

IC: Right. Simon Sinek is introvert.

AW: A lot. A lot of incredible teachers are actually, yes. Okay. Question number two. What are your communication pet peeves?

IC: One of the things a co, there’s a couple of them. One of them is really polite people. They drive me crazy because. I can’t get a good conversation. I can’t move when their politeness is disguising what they’re really thinking, and it kills conversation.

It kills the ability to find mutual value, which is what I’m always looking to explore. And so I’d rather someone be, I’d, honestly, I’d rather have someone be blunt and unpleasant than politely. Not say anything. Yeah. Politely. Boring substance. Yeah. Politely boring.

AW: I bet. Doesn’t I have a hypothesis? I bet that as people are listening to this episode, they’ve got someone in their mind that they know I know someone.

Very well actually, who is very polite and often during and always after my conversations with her, I always think she’s so polite, and I don’t, I have no idea what’s going on in her head. I have no idea. Right. I love that. Okay. Is what else? Any other pet peeves?

IC: Yes, yes. So something that I’ve been experiencing a lot, and maybe you do too.

From these people who call themselves who, who broadcast how nice they are, how servant leaders they are, how kind they are to people, and they ghost me. Like there’s no tomorrow what? They ghost, ghost, ghost, ghost, ghost, ghost, ghost. And I’m okay. I think there are circumstances where, you know, we, we, it’s fine to ghost people.

That’s okay, but I’m talking about. Like, we’ve had several interactions and you’re still ghosting me. Hmm. And it is a pet peeve ’cause it upsets me. However, one of the things that assertive people do, and I keep reminding myself, is to take responsibility for things. We have the power to influence communication with other people, even if they’re not being assertive.

So in all these instances, if someone’s being overly polite and expressing themselves, and if they’re ghosting me, I always have the ability to respectfully, with the right kind of questions, the right kind of action, the right kind of attitude, consistently open people up, and that’s very empowering.

AW: I’ve heard, I have to tell you, I’ve heard this theme. Being ghosted as a pretty common pet peeve. Recently, I’d say in the last year, four or five people have told me that this is their pet. Oh, really? Pet peeve. Yeah. Yeah. Seems like it.

And there, there are we and we, I ended up getting this conversation with, with one person expert that I was interviewing, and I admitted that I used to respond to every email and LinkedIn message that I got from anyone. And then I realized so many of the unsolicited emails were coming to me, and I just, I couldn’t do it. And someone said to me, you do not need to respond to unsolicited sales pitches. Yes. That is not ghosting someone. So, you clarified when you were just talking about being ghosted, you’re not talking about pitching someone for the first time.

AW: No. You’re talking about an, you know, like a, a dialogue that suddenly stopped. Right? Yeah.

IC: You’ve had 3, 4, 5 interactions. Yeah. You had meetings, you spent one hour together, three hours. You’re not asking, you’re not pitching anything. Mm-hmm. Explicitly. But people are scared of you. Yeah, they’re scared of us.

They’re scared when people ghost. Here’s what my interpretation of it: they’re scared of their own reaction. Inability to handle a conversation. They can’t say no. They don’t know how to say no. They don’t know how to say, well, I have concerns. They don’t know how to express or even think through, and talk about. What’s bothering them? So insecure.

AW: Well, and that gets to your point of how to, how you can, as a communication expert, make your question a way that will help them get over that. So, okay. Rapid question number three. Is there a book or a podcast that you find yourself?

IC: I have to recommend my own podcast.

AW: Yeah. To start with, there’s a link there. There will be a link to it in the show notes. Yes.

IC: So speak your Mind Unapologetically podcast and actually listen to myself. As a reminder, because I do have to remind myself sometimes of what I teach. Yeah. So when I go on walks every now and then, or if I’m in the plane traveling somewhere, yeah.

I’ll put it on my own podcast and listen to what I have to say.

AW: I think that’s really, that is really smart. I sometimes, when I haven’t heard myself for a while, I go back and I listen as well, partly because I want to keep improving. But you also wanna remember certain like frameworks or whatever you were teaching.

IC: Now I’m like, oh wow, that was really smart. That’s awesome.

AW: I like that. That’s good. That’s good. I love that you admit that on the podcast episode. I do, I do. I’m, oh, I like that. What else? What else is in your podcast feed that you recommend?

IC: I’m gonna give you books. Yep. Okay. So we talked about. Branding. I love the book.

Building a StoryBrand, uh, gives a great understanding of how to build that, that, that, it just gave me really a lot of, a lot to think about. Atomic Habits was a great book, and I think about building habits around communication skills as well, and that came from that book. It’s a great book. Principles from Ray Dalio.

Love Ray Dalio. Bold man. Bold thinker. If you want to have some bold thoughts on how to approach things and culture, and organization. Yeah, I really like that book. Acting With Power by Deborah Greenfield, also. Great book. I haven’t heard of that one. A Stanford professor. Okay. Really studied the whole power dynamic thing and how do you act with power, especially as a woman in a work environment.

AW: Amazing. So I’m gonna put links to all of those books in the show notes. Is there anything else that you wanna leave the Talk About Talk listeners with in terms, in terms of cultivating the ideal level of assertive, bold, unapologetic communication?

IC: Yeah. So embrace the process of getting there. It’s not, it doesn’t happen overnight.

Surround yourself with assertive people or bold people, and that is a bit contagious as well. Uh, often when we’re not bold, we don’t feel comfortable around bold people, but I encourage you to surround yourself with that kind of people so that you can see how it works and the kind of results that it lead, it creates, and how people respond by observation, and that’s going to naturally cultivate that desire to discover how you can, and there’s no more authentic thing than being able to express ourselves fully in any environment.

So that should lead the way. Figure out what’s most important to you and make sure that, and, and focusing on the goals that you have, the dreams is going to help overcome the fears of being able to speak up, so focus a lot on the dreams as well. Those were my little tips.

AW: Very inspiring. Thank you so much, Ivna. I really enjoyed the conversation and getting to know you. Thank you.

IC: Thank you so much, Andrea.

AW: Thanks again to Ivna. Okay. The first thing I wanna say, did you catch the difference between assertiveness and aggressiveness? I think this is important.

Aggressive is control of others. Assertive is controlling ourselves and expressing ourselves.

One of the simplest ways to do this is simply to say, I, not you. I have something to add. I wanna share something important. I love this disciplined focus on assertiveness versus aggressiveness. We all want to be assertive, and we want to encourage it in others. Before I let you go, I also wanna highlight the DESO or DESC framework that Ivna mentioned. This was a new framework for me.

As you probably know, if you follow me here on the Talk about Talk podcast or on LinkedIn or if you subscribe to my newsletter, you know I love a good framework. It’s not a script, it’s a guideline or a prompting sequence that you can customize and optimize for your context. This DESO or DESC framework will help you when you need to be assertive.

It’s describe, explain, specify the consequences or outcome. So you describe the situation, then you explain or express the impact. Then you specify or invite the other person to hear a message, to make a change. And last, you clarify the consequence or the outcome. This is the impact. Sticking to this framework will help you sound confident, concise, and yes, assertive.

I love this framework, Ivna. Thank you so much for our inspiring conversation. I don’t know about you, but I’m feeling encouraged about being courageous. If you enjoyed this episode, please hit subscribe, and if you’re interested in learning more about how to optimize your communication at work so you can show up with confidence and credibility, then I encourage you to check out the TalkAboutTalk.com website.

There are lots of communication skills, resources for you there. Thanks for listening and talk soon.

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