Why is systemic change at the high school level such a challenge? In this episode, we sit down with Jenny Curtin, Director of Education at the Barr Foundation, to explore what real transformation looks like—and why adding more programs isn't the answer. Jenny shares how listening deeply to students reveals gaps between current reality and what's possible, and why pairing excellence with equity creates the conditions for meaningful change. Whether you're a teacher, administrator, or education advocate, this conversation offers a practical framework for moving beyond quick fixes to address the root causes keeping high schools from serving all students well. A framework for quality in high schools that Barr uses with school partners: https://barrfdn.issuelab.org/resource/indicators-of-school-quality.html We’re proud to make this content free and accessible to all. If you find value in our episodes, please consider donating to support and sustain our efforts: https://cpet.tc.columbia.edu/giving.html