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Some of the most major changes and inventions in history started with someone being told they were wrong, and them not taking “no” for an answer. And for Terry O’Reilly, those are the most captivating stories. In his new book, Against the Grain: Defiant Giants Who Change the World, the host of CBC’s Under the Influence, explores what we can learn from these mavericks, including Taylor Swift — and why in a world where we always need new ideas to grow, our first instinct is to reject them?

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