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Custom Manufacturing Industry podcast is an entrepreneurship and motivational podcast on all platforms, hosted by Aaron Clippinger. Being CEO of multiple companies including the signage industry and the software industry, Aaron has over 20 years of consulting and business management. His software has grown internationally and with over a billion dollars annually going through the software. Using his Accounting degree, Aaron will be talking about his organizational ways to get things done. Hi ...
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In this episode of The Evolving Leader, hosts Jean Gomes and Scott Allender are joined by Dr. Sunita Sah, a physician turned organisational psychologist and Professor of Management at Cornell University. Together they explore the power of saying “no” in a world that rewards compliance. Drawing from her acclaimed book “Defy: The Power of No in a World that Demands Yes”, Dr Sah reveals how our upbringing, institutions, and social pressures teach us to equate being “good” with being obedient, and how that conditioning can silence our values. She introduces the concept of “insinuation anxiety,” the discomfort of implying distrust when we disagree, and shares how to build the courage and skill to act in alignment with what truly matters.
For senior leaders, this conversation reframes defiance as an essential leadership practice, not rebellion, but integrity in action. Sah explains the five stages of defiance, the cost of compliance, and why organisations that cultivate psychological safety and intellectual humility outperform those that suppress challenge. It’s a thought-provoking guide to leading with authenticity, courage, and moral clarity in complex systems where it’s often easier to say yes.
Further materials from Sunita Sah:
“Defy: The Power of No in a Worlds That Demands Yes”, (Blink Publishing, February 2025)
“The science of defiance: A psychology researcher explains why people comply – and how to resist”, (The Conversations, September 2025)
“America thinks it’s a country of free thinkers. But we’re actually compliant”, (Los Angeles Times, February 2025)
“How to Say No and Mean It”, (Psychology Today, January 2025)
Other reading from Jean Gomes and Scott Allender:
Leading In A Non-Linear World (J Gomes, 2023)
The Enneagram of Emotional Intelligence (S Allender, 2023)
Social:
Instagram @evolvingleader
LinkedIn The Evolving Leader Podcast
Twitter @Evolving_Leader
Bluesky @evolvingleader.bsky.social
YouTube @evolvingleader
The Evolving Leader is researched, written and presented by Jean Gomes and Scott Allender with production by Phil Kerby. It is an Outside production.
Chapters
1. Introduction (00:00:00)
2. What led you to explore this topic? (00:02:10)
3. If every listener chose one norm that they’d like to defy or one thing that they wanted to create, what would you hope they’d pick? (00:04:21)
4. When thinking about our values, how can we be sure that they are our actual value rather than the ones that I’ve espoused because I’ve thought that that’s what I should be saying about myself? (00:06:26)
5. Did your research cover the broad spectrum of people who comply to those who choose to defy? (00:10:05)
6. In the context of an accountability sink that might be used by an organisation to scale and save them from having to deal with moral and interpersonal challenges, how is defiance going to work? (00:16:57)
7. The five stages of defiance. (00:21:23)
8. What habits or strategies can we adopt that will challenge insinuation anxiety? (00:26:34)
9. What have you learnt about responding to defiance well? (00:30:54)
10. What advice would you give to leaders to not react (out of habit or anger) when faced with defiance? (00:34:46)
11. Your work shows the mandatory conflict of interest disclosures can backfire by increasing compliance with biased advice. Can you share some examples and guard rails to be thinking about in this space? (00:36:53)
12. Where does defiance fit into a world where it can be difficult to know who you’re talking to and what the motives for various acts are? (00:39:28)
13. What does it take for society to evolve from emotional reaction to informed, accountable action? (00:40:40)
14. Will future generations develop the self-awareness and humility we need? (00:43:34)
15. How does a lack of intellectual humility fuel division and what can we learn from it? (00:47:39)
16. Can you tell us about an act of defiance that you’ve seen that has inspired you? (00:50:10)
210 episodes
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