In this episode of The It Depends Podcast, Matt and Tenille sit down with Associate Professor Emily Gates from Boston College. Emily is an evaluator, educator, and systems thinker whose work bridges theory and practice, with a focus on how evaluation can better reflect the realities of large-scale systems change.

Their conversation ranges from the limits of outcomes-focused evaluation to the importance of boundaries, perspectives, and stewardship in systems practice. Together, they explore what it means to evaluate systemic change, the role of commissioners and funders, and why evaluators may need to act less like neutral judges and more like facilitators of critical deliberation.

Emily invites us to pause, self-critique, and think differently about how evaluation can contribute to meaningful, lasting change. Whether you’re an evaluator, commissioner, or just curious about how change happens in complex systems, this conversation will spark reflection, raise challenging questions, and—of course—leave you with the reminder that sometimes the only answer is: it depends.

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These are links to the resources mentioned in the episode:

• Emily's new book co-written with Pablo Vidueira - Evaluative Inquiry for Systemic Change
• Thomas Schwandt's Evaluation Foundations: Cultivating a Life of Mind for Practice
• The Omidyar Group's Systems Practice Workbook

And while we didn't mention it in the episode, Emily shared afterwards that she routinely goes back to Nora Bateson's book: Small Arcs of Larger Circles: Framing Through Other Patterns (here's an excerpt) for inspiration and new layers of insight.