The Reason Interview with Nick Gillespie goes deep with the artists, activists, entrepreneurs, policymakers, and visionaries who are making the world more libertarian—or at least more interesting—by championing free minds and free markets.

Today's guest is Ben Wizner, deputy legal director at the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU). He says that President Donald Trump's second term has brought an all-out assault on free speech—targeting comedians, immigrants, universities, and even law firms that take the "wrong" cases.

Gillespie and Wizner put Trump's actions in the context of past presidents and discuss whether the ACLU has strayed from the days of defending the free speech rights of American Nazis in Skokie, Illinois, Unite the Right protesters in Charlottesville, Virginia, and the National Rifle Association (NRA) in New York.

They also discuss the legacy of Edward Snowden, with whom Wizner worked, and whether government spying on citizens has gotten better since the whistleblower revealed illegal mass surveillance of Americans during the Obama administration.

0:00—Introduction

1:04—Free speech under Trump

5:33—Comparing Trump to Biden on free speech

9:42—Have Americans become more comfortable with censorship?

16:21—The Federal Communications Commission and Jimmy Kimmel

25:43—What are Trump's standards for protected speech?

28:46—ACLU cases protecting the speech of immigrants

40:12—Why the ACLU defended the NRA

45:02—Has the ACLU remained committed to its mission?

53:52—Protecting the rights of students on college campuses

55:46—Snowden and the state of mass surveillance

• Producer: Paul Alexander
• Audio Mixer: Ian Keyser

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