Getting a job can be really hard—but getting a job as a Senate-confirmed, presidential appointee can be even harder. Today on “Transition Lab,” we welcome Kathryn Dunn Tenpas for a conversation about the role of political appointees in the federal government and the pathway to these jobs.

Tenpas is director of the Katzmann Initiative and a visiting fellow in governance studies at the Brookings Institution. She also is an advisory board member of the White House Transition Project and a practitioner senior fellow at the University of Virginia’s Miller Center. A scholar of the American presidency, Tenpas focuses on presidential personnel, transitions, and reelection campaigns, and her studies include an original database that tracks turnover rates among senior White House staffers. She is the author of “Presidents as Candidates: Inside the White House for the Presidential Campaign” and more than 60 pieces of content on presidency-related topics.

Find a complete transcript of the episode here.