Anthropologist Adam Louis-Klein was in the Amazon on October 9th, when he went online and learned what had happened two days previously. Almost immediately, he also discovered something else: his left-wing colleagues in the academy were ready to ostracize him for his “filthy Zionist” views. Since then, Louis-Klein has turned his analytical eye toward anti-Zionism. In this conversation, he explains the ideology’s history and how it continues to perpetuate itself through cycles of libel. He also breaks down the other greatest hits of left-wing academic jargon — settler-colonialism, genocide, occupation, etc. — along the way. And we all try to break ourselves out of the language games that prevent us from having a real conversation about what’s happening, and not, in Gaza.

On the agenda:

-On Zohran Mamdani [00:00-12:40]

-Libel cycles post-October 7th [12:41-29:12]

-Defining terms: Zionism, Anti-Zionism, and more [29:13-57:00]

-The left’s alliances [57:01-1:10:42]

-On victimhood, violence, and self-reliance [1:10:43-1:27:36]

-The reader’s/viewer’s responsibility [1:27:37-1:42:41]

-Expanding the concept of genocide [1:42:42-2:01:31]

-The future of Anti-Zionism [2:01:32-2:09:37]

Mentioned in this episode:

* When is it Genocide? — The Ezra Klein Show

* Editors’ Note: July 30, 2025 — The New York Times

* Editors’ Note: Gaza Hospital Coverage — The New York Times

* How the World Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Butchery of Jews (w/ Eli Lake) — Uncertain Things

* The Apocalypse We Deserve (w/ Niall Ferguson) — Uncertain Things

* Don’t Blame Israel on the Jews (w/ Walter Russell Mead) — Uncertain Things

* Hooked on Dead Jews (w/ Dara Horn) — Uncertain Things

* Zionism and the Refugee Machine (w/ Dr. Einat Wilf) — Uncertain Things

Uncertain Things is hosted and produced by Adaam James Levin-Areddy and Vanessa M. Quirk. For more doomsday rumination, subscribe.