Interested in being a guest? Email us at admin@evankirstel.com The promise of connecting "everything" to the internet has remained frustratingly out of reach for over a decade. Despite bold predictions of 50 billion connected devices by 2020, the industry achieved just 11 billion – a mere 20% of expectations. Why? As Nick Earle of Eseye, explains, we dramatically underestimated the complexity of creating truly global connectivity. This conversation unveils the missing piece that's finally enabling the Internet of Things to deliver on its potential: ubiquitous connectivity that works everywhere, every time. Drawing from his experience leading global tech giants and now Eseye, Nick reveals how the traditional carrier model was fundamentally misaligned with IoT's needs – and how his company's revolutionary "federation" approach, similar to the airline industry's Star Alliance, is changing everything. What makes this discussion particularly compelling is the real-world impact. Global brands like Amazon, Shell, and Coca-Cola are already leveraging Eseye's technology to deploy single-product SKUs worldwide, transforming their manufacturing, supply chains, and business models. The ROI isn't coming from the data itself, but from the operational efficiencies of building once and deploying anywhere – delivering 100-500x returns over connectivity costs. Beyond the technology, Nick offers a fascinating perspective on what he calls the "third wave of tech disruption" in telecommunications, where eSIM technology and new standards are breaking the 40-year carrier lock on connectivity. For business leaders contemplating IoT strategies, this provides crucial context on why previous attempts may have faltered and how the landscape has fundamentally changed. Whether you're leading a global enterprise or a nimble startup, this episode illuminates how the barriers to IoT adoption are finally falling away, making connected product deployment more accessible and scalable than ever before. The future where devices intelligently choose their own best connectivity method – be it cellular, satellite, or something else – is closer than you might think. Digital Disruption with Geoff Nielson Discover how technology is reshaping our lives and livelihoods. Listen on: Apple Podcasts Spotify Support the show More at https://linktr.ee/EvanKirstel…

Interested in being a guest? Email us at admin@evankirstel.com Meet the team behind Epicor, the business software company on a mission to empower the world's hardest working businesses. For over 50 years, they've been serving manufacturers, distributors, building supply retailers, and the automotive aftermarket with specialized solutions that go beyond standard ERP offerings. Fresh from their annual Insights conference in Las Vegas, which attracted over 4,000 attendees, Epicor has unveiled groundbreaking AI innovations designed specifically for supply chain management and business operations. Their flagship offering, Prism, represents a new approach to agentic AI with a patent-pending LLM inference pipeline that remains model-agnostic – allowing it to adapt to the rapidly evolving AI landscape and call upon the most effective models for each specific workflow. What truly sets Epicor apart is their commitment to human-centered technology. While many competitors are racing toward fully autonomous ERP systems, Epicor deliberately chose a semi-autonomous approach that keeps workers in control. Their philosophy maintains that AI should empower employees rather than replace them, providing rapid information retrieval and analysis while ensuring humans make the final decisions. This approach has already shown remarkable results, with one manufacturing customer cutting delivery time in half and achieving 20% revenue growth by implementing AI for automating RFQ processes. Equally impressive is their patent-pending carbon cost roll-up solution, which treats carbon as currency and leverages manufacturing ERP engines to report the carbon impact of specific processes down to individual jobs on the shop floor – bringing unprecedented accuracy to sustainability efforts. Looking ahead, Epicor envisions an ecosystem where intelligent agents can communicate securely across business functions and between organizations, supported by their Grow Data platform that consolidates information from various business systems into a unified data lake ready for AI applications. Whether through their knowledge agent that saved one customer 55 minutes per support question or their recent acquisition of connected worker platform Acadia, Epicor continues to demonstrate how thoughtfully applied technology can transform industries that form the backbone of our economy. Want to see how Epicor can help your business run smarter and grow faster? Visit Epicor.com to discover their full range of industry-specific solutions and learn why their deep expertise makes them the partner of choice for hard-working businesses worldwide. Digital Disruption with Geoff Nielson Discover how technology is reshaping our lives and livelihoods. Listen on: Apple Podcasts Spotify Support the show More at https://linktr.ee/EvanKirstel…

Interested in being a guest? Email us at admin@evankirstel.com What happens when you gather the most innovative companies in enterprise technology and have nearly 200 expert judges evaluate their groundbreaking solutions? The We Love Tech Awards reveals exactly that, and the results spotlight an exciting cross-section of technological innovation that's transforming how businesses operate. Russell Fordyce of Business Intelligence Group joins us to unveil the winners of this inaugural awards program, showcasing companies that are redefining what's possible in enterprise technology. From AI-powered customer service to quantum computing solutions that were once considered science fiction, these winners represent the cutting edge of practical innovation. The revelations are fascinating – quantum computing has moved beyond theoretical potential to deliver tangible business applications through Dynex's "quantum as a service." Virtual reality and the metaverse aren't just consumer toys but powerful training tools, as demonstrated by EY's gamified professional development platform and TD Bank's immersive learning environments. Meanwhile, Verity's aviation solution uses AI to predict aircraft maintenance needs before failures occur – essentially providing "pre-healthcare for your plane." What makes these awards particularly valuable is their spotlight on companies operating behind the scenes – the technological infrastructure providers whose innovations enable modern business but rarely receive public recognition. Many winners represent specialized solutions addressing industry-specific challenges, from ESG reporting compliance to ruggedized devices for first responders The awards themselves embrace innovation, with winners receiving blockchain-based digital certificates that "live forever" rather than traditional dust-collecting trophies. Looking ahead, the program will return next year with nominations opening in early 2025. Listen in to discover the companies building tomorrow's enterprise technology landscape today, and perhaps find your next technological advantage. Digital Disruption with Geoff Nielson Discover how technology is reshaping our lives and livelihoods. Listen on: Apple Podcasts Spotify Support the show More at https://linktr.ee/EvanKirstel…

Interested in being a guest? Email us at admin@evankirstel.com Cellular connectivity forms the backbone of the IoT revolution, but building truly global, reliable solutions has remained challenging—until now. FloLive is transforming how devices connect worldwide through a revolutionary distributed network architecture that addresses the fundamental limitations of traditional approaches. Most IoT connectivity providers rely heavily on roaming agreements to extend coverage beyond their native footprint. FloLive has taken a fundamentally different path by building its entire technology stack in-house and distributing core network components globally. This "network of networks" approach allows devices to connect locally in different regions while providing customers with a unified management interface. The benefits are profound and multifaceted. When devices connect to local networks, data can be processed regionally rather than traveling across continents, dramatically improving performance and addressing increasingly strict data sovereignty requirements. Network-based security provides protection for resource-constrained IoT devices by analyzing metadata in real-time to detect anomalous behavior. Meanwhile, the ability to seamlessly integrate satellite connectivity ensures devices can maintain connections even in the most remote locations. What makes this approach particularly powerful is how it embraces rather than competes with local mobile network operators. By partnering with MNOs worldwide, FloLive augments their capabilities while ensuring compliance with local regulations. This collaborative strategy is opening doors for innovative applications across industries—from electricity meters in Europe to cleaning robots in Singapore, water irrigation systems across 120 countries, telematics solutions, video applications, and payment terminals. The next frontier involves leveraging artificial intelligence to further enhance the platform. By combining data from multiple sources within their stack, FlowLive is building AI capabilities that will help customers optimize operations, predict network issues, and potentially reduce costs through automated recommendations. Ready to transform your IoT connectivity strategy? FloLive primarily works through partnerships with mobile network operators, MVNOs, IoT service providers, and systems integrators, with sales teams available across Europe, North America, and Asia-Pacific regions to support your global IoT initiatives. Digital Disruption with Geoff Nielson Discover how technology is reshaping our lives and livelihoods. Listen on: Apple Podcasts Spotify Support the show More at https://linktr.ee/EvanKirstel…

Interested in being a guest? Email us at admin@evankirstel.com Imagine turning your biggest frustration into a business that serves millions. That's exactly what happened when Joaquin and his team got tired of spending hours hunting for quality images while designing websites back in 2010. "The main idea was we're scratching our own itch," explains Joaquin, CEO and founder of Freepik. What began as a simple search engine for free images has evolved into a comprehensive AI-powered design platform that's revolutionizing how creative professionals work. Their user-centric approach has driven continuous innovation, from adding icons and photos to embracing the transformative potential of generative AI two years ago. Today, Freepik offers a suite of sophisticated tools leveraging approximately twenty different AI models under the hood. Their video generation capabilities provide end-to-end production with integration to leading models like Glyn, VO2, and Runway. Their image generation suite features their proprietary Mystic model alongside Google's Image N3 and various Flux options, all enhanced by carefully curated visual styles. This technical sophistication is wrapped in an accessible interface designed to simplify complex workflows. Most remarkable is their unwavering commitment to accessibility. Despite the computing costs associated with AI generation, Freepik maintains a strong freemium model, positioning themselves as the most affordable option in the market. "When you make something 10 times cheaper, you get a different use case," Joaquin notes, explaining how dramatic price reductions enable entirely new applications and ultimately expand the market. As they navigate the complex ethical landscape of AI-generated content, Freepik remains committed to respecting creator rights, using only properly licensed images or those without explicit restrictions. Their enterprise solutions even allow companies to disable specific models based on their comfort levels with different technologies. Looking ahead, Freepik continues innovating with new interface paradigms, team collaboration features, and intelligent assistants that orchestrate complex workflows automatically. For Joaquin, a technical founder who witnessed the early internet, today's AI revolution represents an even more profound technological shift with unlimited potential. Want to experience how AI is transforming creative workflows? Visit Freepik today and discover tools that make sophisticated design accessible to everyone. Support the show More at https://linktr.ee/EvanKirstel…

Interested in being a guest? Email us at admin@evankirstel.com Security should be easy, or people simply won't adopt it. This fundamental truth drives everything at Front Egg, where balancing robust protection with frictionless user experiences has become their mission in the SaaS identity management space. During our conversation with Aviad Mizrachi, CTO and co-founder of Front Egg, and Miriam, their tech support engineer and resident Gen Z expert, we uncovered shocking statistics about how security friction directly impacts business outcomes. Did you know that 49% of consumers will abandon a purchase entirely when faced with a password reset? That's half of potential customers walking away with their wallets still full—all because of poor authentication experiences. What makes this conversation particularly fascinating is the generational perspective. While older users grudgingly accept security hurdles as necessary evils, Gen Z approaches technology with different expectations. Having grown up with iPads, Google Classroom, and biometric authentication as the norm, they demand personalization, speed, and seamless experiences. Yet having witnessed countless data breaches affecting loved ones, they maintain healthy skepticism toward emerging technologies like AI. As Miriam puts it, "We understand that AI is innovative, but we also know new vulnerabilities will be introduced." The rapid acceleration of AI has transformed security from a slow-moving field to one where threat cycles complete in days rather than months. Front Egg is responding with AI-powered solutions, including autonomous agents that protect both human and non-human identities. However, they emphasize that the human element remains irreplaceable—particularly in support scenarios where "people just want to talk to people." Ready to see how the right balance of security and user experience could transform your SaaS offering? Listen to this episode for insights that could dramatically improve both your security posture and customer retention. Support the show More at https://linktr.ee/EvanKirstel…

Interested in being a guest? Email us at admin@evankirstel.com The digital landscape has reached a tipping point. In this eye-opening conversation with David Holmes, CTO for Application Security at Imperva (a Thales division), we uncover the alarming reality that machines now dominate internet traffic. For the first time in over a decade, bot traffic has surpassed human activity online – and a staggering 37% of all traffic is malicious automation. Quantum computing's looming threat to our encryption infrastructure takes center stage as David explains the race to develop quantum-resistant algorithms before "Q-Day" arrives. The cybersecurity community faces the monumental task of gracefully transitioning the entire internet to new encryption standards that can withstand quantum attacks. Meanwhile, enterprises must focus on protocol agility, learning from past transitions to prepare for this inevitable shift. The conversation shifts to the AI security paradox currently facing organizations worldwide. While companies rush to develop AI-enabled applications, most admit they haven't thought through security implications. Simultaneously, attackers are leveraging AI to create increasingly sophisticated bots that evade detection. This AI arms race extends to API security, where the programming interfaces powering our digital economy face growing threats. With the API security market expanding 27% annually, organizations must move beyond merely discovering their API endpoints to implementing robust security measures. The recent Imperva acquisition by Thales has created a cybersecurity powerhouse combining Imperva's application security expertise with Thales massive global presence serving 100,000 customers across 30 industries in 100 countries. This strategic integration positions them uniquely to address the convergent challenges of quantum computing, AI security, and the bot-dominated internet landscape we now inhabit. Want to learn more about securing your organization in this new reality? Explore how Talus and Imperva are helping enterprises prepare for both immediate threats and long-term security challenges. Connect with us today to protect your mission-critical applications in an environment where machines – not humans – dominate digital traffic. Support the show More at https://linktr.ee/EvanKirstel…

Interested in being a guest? Email us at admin@evankirstel.com What happens when one of the longest-standing leaders in enterprise communications acquires another major player in the industry? Eric Hanson, CMO at Mitel, reveals the transformative journey following their acquisition of Unify, which has created what may be the largest install base in the unified communications industry—over 70 million users across more than 100 countries. Hanson pulls back the curtain on Mitel's brand new website launch, describing how it reflects a fundamental shift in strategy. The redesigned digital experience serves both direct enterprise customers and Mitel's robust partner ecosystem, telling a more compelling story about how unified communications extends far beyond video conferencing. From telehealth applications to critical military communications to traditional desk phones, Mitel's solutions support the full spectrum of enterprise communication needs. Most fascinating is Hansen's observation about what enterprise customers are actually prioritizing. Despite the industry's focus on pure cloud solutions, Mitel's vast customer base reveals a different reality: large organizations are increasingly adopting hybrid communications strategies that blend different deployment models. Even more surprising, there's growing demand for dedicated cloud instances rather than just multi-tenant configurations—a trend that aligns with findings from analyst firms like Frost & Sullivan. This perspective challenges the conventional narrative and explains Mitel's approach to product development. With their financial restructuring proceeding ahead of schedule, successful launches of their Mitel CX product and Zoom joint venture, and a thoughtful approach to global localization, Mitel is positioning itself at the forefront of the unified communications evolution. Want to see how they're reimagining enterprise communications? Visit their new website to experience their customer-focused approach firsthand. Support the show More at https://linktr.ee/EvanKirstel…

Interested in being a guest? Email us at admin@evankirstel.com Imagine a world where construction project data flows seamlessly between office and field teams, where disconnected spreadsheets transform into integrated insights, and where project managers can see the complete picture of their operations in real-time. That's the future QuickBase is building for the construction industry. Tim Douglas, GM of Construction at QuickBase, brings 25 years of construction tech experience to this conversation about the industry's unique challenges and promising solutions. He articulates why construction is particularly difficult to modernize: "Every single project is a prototype. The teams that come together, come together once, will maybe never work again on the same project...every project literally is a snowflake." This fundamental reality creates persistent challenges around disconnected systems, data silos, and communication gaps between field and office teams. What makes this conversation particularly timely is the looming demographic shift in construction. By 2031, approximately 40% of today's construction workforce will retire, creating both a knowledge gap and an opportunity for transformation. The incoming generation of workers expects digital tools that match their tech-native experiences, driving companies to modernize how work gets done. QuickBase's approach stands out by functioning as both a solution for specific problems and a connector between existing systems – the "brick and mortar" of a modern construction tech stack. The recently launched Project Hub Pro represents QuickBase's response to these challenges, allowing mid-sized contractors to quickly transition from disconnected spreadsheets to a unified view of their operations. One electrical contractor imported three critical spreadsheets into Project Hub and immediately gained unprecedented visibility across previously siloed data. This "light bulb moment" led to plans for deeper integration with accounting systems and field data collection tools. Whether you're managing a single project or overseeing a global portfolio, construction's future depends on connecting the right information to the right people in the right format – exactly what QuickBase is designed to deliver. Discover how your projects could benefit from this approach by exploring QuickBase's construction solutions today. Support the show More at https://linktr.ee/EvanKirstel…

Interested in being a guest? Email us at admin@evankirstel.com Cyber resilience has become the new frontier in enterprise storage, transforming how organizations protect their most critical data assets. In this illuminating conversation with Eric Herzog, CMO at Infinidat, we explore how modern storage systems have evolved beyond traditional reliability measures to incorporate robust cybersecurity capabilities. Herzog reveals the stark reality facing enterprises today: "It's not if they're going to be attacked, it's when and how often." With 90% of enterprise data residing on storage systems, leaving them unprotected effectively invites attackers to compromise your most valuable information. Infinidat's approach integrates immutable snapshots, forensic environments, and direct connections to security platforms like SIEMs and SOARs, enabling automated responses to detected threats. The conversation highlights remarkable recovery capabilities that seemed impossible just years ago - restoring four petabytes in four seconds, guaranteed recovery of primary storage in under a minute, and backup recovery of unlimited petabytes in under 20 minutes. These achievements aren't just technical milestones; they represent business continuity assurance for organizations that cannot tolerate extended downtime. Beyond security, Herzog discusses how Infinidat's performance technologies dramatically reduce infrastructure requirements - one customer consolidated from 288 petabytes to just 61 petabytes while maintaining workload performance. This efficiency extends to operational resources, with customers reducing storage administration staff by up to 73%. As organizations increasingly prioritize AI initiatives, Infinidad]t is also developing RAG solutions that integrate with existing storage infrastructure to support the constant learning necessary for effective AI implementations. Curious about how your organization can transform storage from a vulnerability to a cybersecurity asset? Listen to the full episode to discover approaches that leading Fortune 2000 companies are implementing today to protect their most critical data resources. Support the show More at https://linktr.ee/EvanKirstel…

Interested in being a guest? Email us at admin@evankirstel.com Cybersecurity is racing against time. In his compelling keynote, Nikesh Arora reveals that cyber attackers now need less than an hour from targeting to data exfiltration—a timeline that renders traditional security approaches dangerously obsolete. The stakes couldn't be higher. Tech giants are pouring roughly $350 billion into AI infrastructure, creating models that continuously learn and evolve unlike traditional predictable software. This transformation will fundamentally reshape every SaaS application we use within 3-5 years, introducing AI assistants, agent-to-agent communications, and entirely new interfaces. For security professionals, this represents both an extraordinary challenge and opportunity. Arora details how Palo Alto Networks has "flipped the bit" from merely identifying security problems to actively solving them. This paradigm shift follows the autonomous vehicle blueprint: progressing from basic assists to co-pilot functionality, and eventually toward fully autonomous security operations. By ingesting 11 petabytes of security data daily through their XIAM platform, they're enabling not just wartime incident response but also peacetime security optimization. The path toward truly agentic security requires building trust through demonstrated reliability. Just as we gradually accepted self-driving vehicles, security automation must earn our confidence through increasingly sophisticated assistance before we grant it full agency. This journey demands close collaboration between vendors and customers to refine these capabilities safely. Have you considered how your security strategy needs to evolve for this AI-powered future? Join us in exploring cybersecurity's next frontier where protection happens in real-time and machines protect machines. Support the show More at https://linktr.ee/EvanKirstel…

Interested in being a guest? Email us at admin@evankirstel.com The world of identity management is experiencing a revolutionary transformation, and Frontegg stands at the forefront of this change. During this enlightening conversation at RSA Conference, Frontegg CTO Aviad Mizrachi reveals how their solution is empowering SaaS providers with just five lines of code integration, allowing some developers to implement comprehensive identity management in as little as two minutes. What makes Frontegg truly transformative is their dual approach to identity challenges. For B2B SaaS companies, they've fixed the broken elements of self-service capabilities, complex hierarchies, and multi-application identity consolidation. Their platform creates a single source of truth for user identities across applications while bridging the critical visibility gap between security professionals and developers. This comprehensive approach ensures security teams gain the customer identity insights they need without creating implementation hurdles for developers. Most excitingly, Frontegg is pioneering solutions for the emergent "agent era" where AI agents represent an entirely new category of digital entity requiring identity management. Unlike traditional employees with email-based identities, AI agents introduce fundamental questions about authentication, authorization, and access controls. As Aviad explains, "What can this agent access and how does the access policy work there? That's a complete change in the way that identity is being managed." By addressing these challenges head-on, Frontegg is defining the newest generation of identity management—one that will shape the secure integration of both human users and AI agents across our digital landscape for years to come. Support the show More at https://linktr.ee/EvanKirstel…

Interested in being a guest? Email us at admin@evankirstel.com The cybersecurity landscape has fundamentally shifted from prevention to resilience. Gone are the days when organizations could reasonably expect to prevent all breaches. Now, the question isn't if you'll be breached, but when—and how quickly you can recover. Rubrik stands at the forefront of this new reality, bringing a refreshingly practical approach to data security. Rather than promising impenetrable defenses, they've built a platform that helps organizations bounce back quickly when attacks inevitably occur. By analyzing data risks, understanding data locations, and minimizing unnecessary access points, companies can significantly reduce breach impacts and accelerate recovery times. What makes Rubrik's approach particularly powerful is their unique combination of identity security and data classification. While many security tools focus exclusively on either identity or data, Rubrik recognizes that these elements are inseparable in modern environments. Attackers target identities as pathways to sensitive data, making it essential to understand which identities—both human and non-human—can access your most critical information. This perspective has become increasingly important as organizations navigate the complexities of machine identities, API tokens, and AI agents. The conversation also explores Rubrik's innovations in AI security, including Project Annapurna, which enables organizations to run AI models against backed-up data with carefully controlled access. As Multi-Agent Collaboration Protocol (MCP) creates new possibilities for security automation, Rubrik helps customers balance innovation with appropriate safeguards. Ready to transform how your organization thinks about data security and resilience? Visit the Rubrik booth at RSAC to learn more about their revolutionary approach to combining identity and data security. Support the show More at https://linktr.ee/EvanKirstel…

Interested in being a guest? Email us at admin@evankirstel.com Cyber resilience has evolved from an IT concern to a boardroom priority, and for good reason. As Andy Fernandez, Senior Director of Product Marketing at HYCU explains, while organizations have fortified their on-premises defenses, their cloud and SaaS environments remain dangerously exposed—creating perfect targets for today's sophisticated cyber threats. This eye-opening conversation reveals a critical shift in the cybersecurity landscape. Five years ago, crippling attacks on critical infrastructure prompted massive security investments, successfully reducing ransomware impacts on traditional workloads. However, this success has merely redirected attackers toward less-protected cloud applications. "Attackers realize that on-prem, organizations have tremendous infrastructure and great backups," Fernandez explains. "But guess what? They have no backups, no recovery options in SaaS and cloud. These are sitting ducks." Enter HYCU's groundbreaking R-Shield—a comprehensive cyber resilience framework protecting over 86 different workloads. Unlike solutions focusing solely on virtual machines, R-Shield addresses critical protection gaps for essential applications like GitHub, Box, and Jira. Its innovative capabilities include rapid ransomware detection, block-level immutable backups for SaaS workloads, and offline recovery options that ensure access to critical knowledge even during service outages. Real-world examples showcase R-Shield's impact across industries, from financial services responding to new EU regulations to the Boston Red Sox protecting everything from ticketing systems to game-day operations. Ready to close your organization's cyber resilience gaps? Discover how HYCU's intelligent yet simple approach can have you protecting your complete data estate—not just a fraction—starting today. Support the show More at https://linktr.ee/EvanKirstel…

Interested in being a guest? Email us at admin@evankirstel.com Security conferences are notorious for their overwhelming noise – hundreds of vendors competing for attention, media rushing between briefings, and an endless stream of press releases hitting inboxes. How do cybersecurity brands actually break through? My conversation with Ariel from PAN Communications digs into this exact challenge. With 30+ years in the cybersecurity PR space (and Ariel's 14 years with the company), Pan has mastered the delicate art of storytelling in an industry built on technical complexity. Their approach focuses on three critical elements: timing, format, and narrative. Rather than simply pushing client messages, they craft stories that tap into current trends like generative AI while demonstrating real-world impact. Trust emerges as the central theme throughout our discussion. In cybersecurity's "zero trust" world, establishing credibility is paramount. PAN builds this through concrete data, customer success stories, and amplifying the executives behind the technologies. "People trust people," Ariel notes, highlighting why putting faces to brands drives engagement and demand. This strategy has yielded impressive results – helping one client generate 2,000 leads in six months post-rebrand, doubling site traffic for another, and delivering a 350% jump in conversions during an IPO. The traditional media landscape continues to evolve, with influencers, podcasters, and platforms like Reddit and Substack gaining influence in cybersecurity circles. PAN adapts by conducting comprehensive audience audits and developing long-term influencer partnerships. Meanwhile, "AI fatigue" is setting in among journalists who now demand stories beyond the buzzwords – they want tangible outcomes and practical applications. As we wrap up with RSAC survival tips (comfortable shoes and portable chargers are non-negotiable), the lesson is clear: in cybersecurity marketing, authentic storytelling wins over hype every time. What story is your company telling? Support the show More at https://linktr.ee/EvanKirstel…